Topic: Metric or Imperial System for RM Revised

[koustaki]

Can't wait for the logic of Kelvin to set in, so the weather report is always in the high 400 to low 500 range. . . .Starting at absolute zero, our methane breathing evil alien overlords prefer it to this celcius business, which they consider a modern version of water worship.

Hum, I thought the Kelvin scale was something around K = C + 273. That would give us the measure of a bright, warm, sunny day around 300 kelvins. Not bad, I can get used to that.

Rb

[GreenRipper]

Most of the US companies who have gone metric deal with mechanical products.  These are mainly large items which will eventually require repair.  People in other countries will not purchase Imperial Standard tools so they have had to convert to metric fasteners.  This puts Americans in the situation where many of us own two sets of tools, metric and IS.

My favorite situation was the early change-over in the early 80's.  I had a car which required IS tools for the engine but metric tools for the chasis.

As far as US gaming companies converting to metric; I don't see it happening any time soon.  American buyers are the main target for most US gaming companies and they will not be at all happy about a switch to metric.  I know people who complain about sci-fi games which are metric.  I have to believe that the majority of ICE sales are in the US.  If this is the case then there is NO real advantage for ICE to switch to metric.

This is not an argument for IS, just being realistic.  Most of the posters on this subject appear to be Europeans.  I can understand your arguments in favor of metric.  The problem is that I'm not sure if you can understand the argument against it.  Americans are loath to switch to metric because they are used to IS.  The US government tried to push a conversion to metric and it didn't work.  Americans prefer to stay with the system they know and some see a switch as "un-American".  Strange I know, but this is the situation.

[smug]

As I said before, the US already uses a mix of metric and Imperial units. In the end, I guess that it'll all be metric or dual-valued (even selling food products abroad, there's savings to uniformity of packaging). Everything going dual-valued is probably the way to get people used to it and then make the change to metric slow.

As for rpgs, I guess that where the market is will be the deciding factor. I guess that the US is the majority of the market, although any games company that can change that could do really well (given that there are more non-Americans than there are Americans).

[allenrmaher]

As for rpgs, I guess that where the market is will be the deciding factor. I guess that the US is the majority of the market, although any games company that can change that could do really well (given that there are more non-Americans than there are Americans).

Unless you translate more than measurements I suspect it will be hard to penetrate the international markets.  Amazingly it is relatively easy to find WHFRP in a plethora of languages.  The english speaking world is dominated by the Americans... the numbers game just doesn't work in our favour.

Rough estimates...
300 million Americans (have to conciously resist the natural tendancy of Canadians to refer to them as Yanks or 'the States' )
30+ milion Canadains
20+ million Antipodeans
70+ million between the UK and Ireland

As far as the english market goes the americans have the numbers.  The other english speakers (South Africans, other members of the comonwealth, and others) are not easy markets for a little game company to appeal to.

Unless you were releasing a spanish version, or perhaps a french or german version... In which case metric would make overwhelming sense.

A spanish version could do well, the market is big enough, and there are many good and affordable translators to draw from in the USA.  Not to mention it has dommestic applicability.

A french version in metric would be nice... but probably not too likely.

[koustaki]

A spanish version could do well, the market is big enough, and there are many good and affordable translators to draw from in the USA.  Not to mention it has dommestic applicability.

A french version in metric would be nice... but probably not too likely.

Though, I find funny that in this forum, where people do speak English and no other European language, metric is still the favourite. Don't underestimate the value of English as lingua franca. As for translations, I agree they're the best possible option, especially considering I do translations for a living. Unfortunately, a translation from someone in the US would sound strange to someone in Spain (or Argentina, for that matter). It's a fragmented market in terms of dialects, although we all agree in the use of metric system

[smug]

As for rpgs, I guess that where the market is will be the deciding factor. I guess that the US is the majority of the market, although any games company that can change that could do really well (given that there are more non-Americans than there are Americans).

Unless you translate more than measurements I suspect it will be hard to penetrate the international markets.  Amazingly it is relatively easy to find WHFRP in a plethora of languages.  The english speaking world is dominated by the Americans... the numbers game just doesn't work in our favour.

Rough estimates...
300 million Americans (have to conciously resist the natural tendancy of Canadians to refer to them as Yanks or 'the States' )
30+ milion Canadains
20+ million Antipodeans
70+ million between the UK and Ireland

As far as the english market goes the americans have the numbers.  The other english speakers (South Africans, other members of the comonwealth, and others) are not easy markets for a little game company to appeal to.

Unless you were releasing a spanish version, or perhaps a french or german version... In which case metric would make overwhelming sense.

A spanish version could do well, the market is big enough, and there are many good and affordable translators to draw from in the USA.  Not to mention it has dommestic applicability.

A french version in metric would be nice... but probably not too likely.

A surprising number of young people in Europe speak good english. Not just Scandinavia and the Netherlands (who often speak English better than the the typical english person) but I was pretty surprised by how many people spoke good English when I was in Slovakia and Austria and, I gather, the situation is pretty similar in Germany. Increasing international proficiency in the English language, particularly amongst the young, should be increasing the opportunities for rpg firms (although, clearly, this is against a backdrop of falling interest in ttrpgs in general).

[Sorloc]

OK, so should we now move to a discussion of what language to use? 
I vote for Japanese, as it is an advanced language, with technical (math, science, engineering, high-tech) capability, and still fairly simple to learn, as opposed to English, which, as it does recreate itself on a continuing basis by absorbing elements of any culture it comes into contact with, is complicated to the point of insensibility, even to most native speakers.

 

I  take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you,
On hiccough, thorough, laugh and through?
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird,
And dead: it's said like bed, not bead -
For goodness sake don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt).
 A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother,
And here is not a match for there
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's dose and rose and lose -
Just look them up - and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward,
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart -
Come, come, I've hardly made a start!
A dreadful language? Man alive!
I'd mastered it when I was five!

When the English tongue we speak.
Why is break not rhymed with freak?
Will you tell me why it's true
We say sew but likewise few?
And the maker of the verse,
Cannot rhyme his horse with worse?
Beard is not the same as heard
Cord is different from word.
Cow is cow but low is low
Shoe is never rhymed with foe.
Think of hose, dose,and lose
 And think of goose and yet with choose
Think of comb, tomb and bomb,
Doll and roll or home and some.
Since pay is rhymed with say
Why not paid with said I pray?
Think of blood, food and good.
Mould is not pronounced like could.
Wherefore done, but gone and lone -
Is there any reason known?
To sum up all, it seems to me
Sound and letters don't agree.


This was written by Lord Cromer, 1902

[allenrmaher]

OK, so should we now move to a discussion of what language to use? 
I vote for Japanese, as it is an advanced language, with technical (math, science, engineering, high-tech) capability, and still fairly simple to learn, as opposed to English, which, as it does recreate itself on a continuing basis by absorbing elements of any culture it comes into contact with, is complicated to the point of insensibility, even to most native speakers.

Spoken Japonese is quite easy... not much in the way of complex grammer, the sylabic system makes sense after you've delt with it for a short while.  When I worked in Japan I found it quite easy to function, basic manners, restraunt speak etc...  HOWEVER the written language is a mess.  4 separate writing systems used on a single page, I remember the names of some of them... Hirigana, Katkana, Romaji... Can't remember the other one.

If you don't want to have a Quebec premier upset remember to release the French version at the same time as the english one.  (last time MS did that then premier Lucien Buchard stormed up and down... to no avial  )  Oh yah and it should be in Quebec City french not Algerian, Outaouais, Dominican, or Parisian. 

[Marc R]

I'd think Esperanto would be the obvious choice.

[Cormac Doyle]

lol

I'd think Esperanto would be the obvious choice.

Does ANYONE seriously use Esperanto ?

in my experience, English is rapidly becoming the "Lingua Franca" of business and (especially) technology ...

Cormac

[mocking bird]

in my experience, English is rapidly becoming the "Lingua Franca" of business and (especially) technology ...

Is that like saying Jerusalem is the Mecca of Judaism?

[PiXeL01]

Hiragana (for japanese words), Katakana (for "foreign" word), Romaji (Roman letters) and Kanji (Chinese symbols)

I dont agree on that Japanese is easy to learn. I have been studying for 2 years now and havent really gotten a hand of it yet, but that might be because of a tint of lazyness. Nor does it feel logic to me. It is maybe because I still try to speak as I write.
Another problem with Japanese is that when you learn it, you have to learn up to 3 languages in one, both written and spoken. These depend on who you are talking to, then different rules apply. So japanese, no thank you.

English is prefered where I live, which is Scandinavia. There is actually little interest here in translated books, for two reasons. We are a small population, around 15 million if you count all 4 or 5 languages (The countries in Scandinavia varies depending on who you ask), so tranlating everything wouldnt be a good market. Also we are very comfortable with english as is.

We are somewhat used to the Metric/IS conversion, 3 feet to a yard which is short of 1m, 12 inches to a foot, and 2.54cm to an inch. It is just bothersome, but causes no really problems. Usually we see 10feet as 3meters, so we got it covered pretty much. I did vote for Metric, though I dont really care. Still a sheet for conversion in the back would be a nice gesture

[Dr_Sage]

lol

I'd think Esperanto would be the obvious choice.

Does ANYONE seriously use Esperanto ?

in my experience, English is rapidly becoming the "Lingua Franca" of business and (especially) technology ...

Cormac

In this case I would quote the fmous Borg dito: "Lower your shields, and surrender your ships. Resistance is Futile!"

English is relatively easy to learn.

My country speaks portuguese but I recognize that the majority of Latin America, and some of the US speaks spanish. Probably spanish would be a good idea for second laguage for ICE products.

PS: Laugh point to LordMiller. 

[Justin]

Metric(voted)
Easier to put into Excel sheets. 

[Blakkrall]

Voted Metric. Imperial System is some kind of... folkloric ?
Don't forget that there are player's outside USA 
It's for us a real pain to "translate" those units...

[Justin]

Voted Metric. Imperial System is some kind of... folkloric ?
Don't forget that there are player's outside USA 
It's for us a real pain to "translate" those units...

It's a pain for the american's too, the math is the same just in reverse.
But then, I used to be my school's metric tutor(while I was still a student), and I'm all for america switching to metric standards.

[yammahoper]

I do not understand the "it is so hard to calculate imperial to metric" or metric to imperial arguement.  Perhaps in sci fi were accurate measures are needed, but in a fantsy game, 1 foot is 25cm, and yard/meter are fairly interchangable.  For long distances, 1 mile is 1.6km.  The math required to translate is simple, and often doesnt even require a calculator.

lynn

[smug]

A foot is closer to 30 cm than 25 cm (and, indeed, good job too, or a yard and a meter really wouldn't be even approximately interchangeable).

I do all my science in metric but still measure everyday distances and weights in imperial (that's true of nearly all British people, I would say).

[Blakkrall]

I do not understand the "it is so hard to calculate imperial to metric" or metric to imperial arguement.  lynn

Not hard. Just tiresome. Like others, I think that both of them would be better.

[Monteblanco]

I do not understand the "it is so hard to calculate imperial to metric" or metric to imperial arguement.  [...]

The fact you need to calculate is the problem. I spend two and a half years in the US to get my Ph.D. and I never got a feeling for the Imperial System. At that time I learned to quickly calculate conversions to metric, but it is kind of tiresome.

I have no hope ICE would convert to metric but dual stats would be a nice solution. Perhaps ICE would agree if some of us volunteer to make the conversions and release a metric version of their pdf offerings.