Topic: Critical rolls

[Dalewarrior]

Hello,
I've got an 18th lvl craftswoman-archer that has Adrenal Maneuver Speed to double her 2 bow attacks to 4 per round; Haste that doubles the number of attacks to 8; and a spell I found in Arms Companion lvl 17-Longbow that teleports the arrows from the quiver to her hand and yet doubles her number of attacks again to 16!

This is hell for calculating the damage inflicted with 16 separate attacks and critical rolls per round.

I suggested only rolling once and multiply the damage by 16, which she didn't like. How would you do it?
Cheers,
DW

[Hurin]

First, I would resolve the question: do Haste and Adrenal Speed stack?

Second, I would ask that even if they do stack, are they multiplicative rather than additive?

I might also note Arms Law, section 3.6 (the part on Haste and speed) which stipulates that 'A hasted character may not fire more than twice a round'.

Also, I'm not seeing any 'spells' in the Arms Companion. What exactly is the level 17 spell?

[Dalewarrior]

Hi Hurin,

Uau, that note on the Arms Law had escaped me!

The spell I mentioned is in the Spell User's Companion, my bad,

Weapon Mastery, Closed Essence and Base List for Semi spell users of the Fighter type, Spell User’s Companion, p. 51,
17-Longbow (F*) Area of effect: 1 weapon; D: 1 round/lvl; R: 10’. Enchants the longbow for the duration. This spell will if desired teleport arrows at a maximum rate of 2 per
round, allowing one to shoot 2 arrows/round as the archer needs only to mimic pulling a bow and an arrow will appear to string. Arrows remain in body until the duration expires, or
removed normally. When the spell is cast, bow and arrows appear anywhere within range, at caster’s feet, on target’s hands, on a table, etc.
Cheers!
DW

[Hurin]

Wow, I knew that some of the material in the SUC was OP, but I'd never really looked at many of them. Check out the level 1 spell on Warrior's Blade (p. 50), which gives a permanent bonus to a weapon equal to the caster's level, for 1 power point. (?!?)

Anyhoo, that level 17 spell is extremely powerful. The only downside is that it isn't a permanent spell, and the caster would give up any materials bonus for the bow, but still...

I should note that I'm not exactly sure whether Haste and Adrenal Speed would stack. I could see an argument in favor of it. However, that line in Arms Law should be noted, as I think that could be seen as a hard cap on the number of attacks a character can perform in a round. Note too that any further attacks would have to be in Fire Phase B, after movement, because hasted characters still abide by sequence restrictions. So, even if it were 16 attacks per round, that would be 1 attack in Fire Phase A and 15 in B. It sounds odd, but that seems to be the RAW.

Also note that the rules about haste on p. 9 note that 'a wounded character bleeds at double normal rate' when hasted. So both Haste and Adrenal Speed would seem to multiply bleeding at the same rate they multiply attacks. The note also says to be careful about using Haste in your game, so that might be a way of broaching the subject with your player: it is clear the developers were worried about balance.

[nash]

A spell I found in Arms Companion lvl 17-Longbow that teleports the arrows from the quiver to her hand and yet doubles her number of attacks again to 16!

Weapon Mastery, Closed Essence and Base List for Semi spell users of the Fighter type, Spell User’s Companion, p. 51,
17-Longbow (F*) Area of effect: 1 weapon; D: 1 round/lvl; R: 10’. Enchants the longbow for the duration. This spell will if desired teleport arrows at a maximum rate of 2 per
round, allowing one to shoot 2 arrows/round as the archer needs only to mimic pulling a bow and an arrow will appear to string.

Not sure how you go from 'Maximum of 2 arrows/round' to 'Doubles her number of attacks again to 16'.   

So my first step would be to make and adjustment to that ruling.  Second I'd allow adrenal speed to an extra attack - as Hurin said.

* nash notes that RMU seems to had headed this one off at the pass - Adrenal Speed adds 2AP (no multiplication).  Haste (and Speed) spells also add AP.   So worst case is you end up with 10 AP a round I think.   So you't get 2AP in phase I, 2AP in phase 2, 3AP in phase 3, and 3AP in phase 4.   With gives you 2 full attacks and 1 at -50.   Or 3 full attacks if you use the spell above.

[EltonJ]

Didn't Orlando Bloom fire off two arrows every ten seconds?

[Amano]

If a pc in my game had 16 attacks I would deal with it by trying to ensure that they mostly shoot at two types of target, low level mobs that can be assumed killed/incapacitated bar fumbles and very high DB mobs that can only be hit with high open-ended rolls. It might not be all that satisfying for the player but it’s better than letting the other players sit there while we resolve 16 attacks!

I agree with the other posters though, you have calculated your number of attacks very generously. I would rule that haste and adrenal speed both add 100% activity and that teleporting 2 arrows adds one attack. Assuming you start with 2 attacks (not sure why this is) that would total 7 attacks, which still might take a while but seems more reasonable given your level.

Alternatively, you could resolve all 16 attacks with a single attack roll and critical roll, like a fireball.

[jdale]

* nash notes that RMU seems to had headed this one off at the pass - Adrenal Speed adds 2AP (no multiplication).  Haste (and Speed) spells also add AP.   So worst case is you end up with 10 AP a round I think.   So you't get 2AP in phase I, 2AP in phase 2, 3AP in phase 3, and 3AP in phase 4.   With gives you 2 full attacks and 1 at -50.   Or 3 full attacks if you use the spell above.

Absolute success on Adrenal Speed gets you +4 AP. So, if you suppose that sums with Haste (there's no explicit rule here), that would put you at 12 AP. Ranged attacks are 1-3 AP plus reloading is 1 AP. Quickload reduces your first reload to an instantaneous action, but the others are still going to take AP. So in principle you could attack on your 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, and 12th action points for seven shots in the round (all at -50). If you had a ranged weapon that didn't require reloading (say, a laser pistol), you could in principle make 12 attacks (also at -50). But that takes a magic item, a very high level spell, and either a very high adrenal speed bonus or a lucky roll, and you are still taking the penalties.

If, as a GM, I had let all those stars align (presumably only in the context of a fairly high-powered game), I might deal with it by letting the character collapse several attacks into a single attack of larger size, whether as a rule or maybe tacking that on as an additional property of the item. But I could also mitigate by increasing the foe's DB so taking that -50 was a poor choice. With 12 AP and quickload, you could get three attacks with no penalties, and have a couple AP to spare.

[Cory Magel]

Uau, that note on the Arms Law had escaped me!

The spell I mentioned is in the Spell User's Companion, my bad,

Weapon Mastery, Closed Essence and Base List for Semi spell users of the Fighter type, Spell User’s Companion, p. 51,
17-Longbow (F*) Area of effect: 1 weapon; D: 1 round/lvl; R: 10’. Enchants the longbow for the duration. This spell will if desired teleport arrows at a maximum rate of 2 per
round, allowing one to shoot 2 arrows/round as the archer needs only to mimic pulling a bow and an arrow will appear to string. Arrows remain in body until the duration expires, or
removed normally. When the spell is cast, bow and arrows appear anywhere within range, at caster’s feet, on target’s hands, on a table, etc.

It seems that both the system (limiting characters to two attack actions per turn) and the spell (bold above) would stop at two shots per round.
Dual Wield gets around that by saying you get two attacks per attack action (so four are possible per game rules).

On stacking Haste and Adrenal Speed, I think that I'd limit that to 100% extra each (so 300% total). This is one of the few examples of when I think Exhaustion rules might actually be useful.
At the absolute most generous I would say the spell (2 shots) plus Haste (2 more shots) and Adrenal Speed (2 more shots) would result in six at most per round.

My real concern about this whole thing about 16 shots per round is: Is that character standing out from the other characters in the game?  I actually did the dual wield/adrenal speed thing once and I started to dislike the degree to which I was overshadowing the other characters in combat.  Beyond that, the GM had to put us up against at least one foe that would challenge that character which, if I went down for some reason, would just plow through the rest of the party.

[Dalewarrior]

Thanks for your answers! 

[Hurin]

Ah, good catch Cory on the 'maximum rate of 2 per round' for the Longbow spell. That helps I think.

[Spectre771]

I've been going through some of the companions and I'm with Hurin on this as we had a player back in college who tried to really max out the bow attacks per round.  Do Haste and Adrenal speed stack or multiply?  Keeping in mind, the bow attack is what is doubled, not the number of bow attacks the player is making per round.  i.e.: additive, not multiplicative.

In our game, at most, we would allow 6 shots in one round and only for one round as the Adrenal Speed has to pass/succeed for round 2, and however long the duration of the Haste is, then the level 17 spell that has to be cast again (unless that spell lasts several rounds.)

How is the PC getting hasted?  Self cast spell, item, or caste onto the PC?
How is the level 17 Longbow spell being cast and by whom?

Here are the logistics:
Round to prepare adrenal speed.  Attempt made in round 2.
Haste has to be cast or activated.  Could go off in round 1 or round or later if the spell has several rounds of prep.
Level 18 PC casting a level 17 spell is 3 rounds of prep to cast.

Can the PC prep a spell as well as prep for Adrenals as well as activate/cast Haste, then still have any action left in the turn to shoot any arrows as the act of casting the spell is normally the lion's share of the round with not enough action left over to make a physical attack as well.

Finally, can the bow string and/or bow handle the stress of being fired 16 times in such a short period of time?  It's like Vampire the Masquerade... The maximum Celerity is 10 as the physical tissue can't handle the stress of moving so rapidly without destruction.

[Dalewarrior]

Hi Spectre,
I’d say to double something is to add it by the initial score. If you’ve got 2 attacks, if you double that, then you’ve got 2+2=4. If you double those 4 attacks, then you’ve got 4+4= 8 attacks.

I’d agree with you on the spell casting necessary, which I had overlooked. Say, if the PC cast from a magic item a 6-Haste*, which takes off 10% of activity as it is an instantaneous spell, then he’d have 3 attacks (150% activity) left with the Haste, and double that, 3+3=6 with an Adrenal Moves Speed maneuver. (I’m using here the terminology of RM Companion I and RM Classic.)
The 17-Longbow spell has also the symbol * on it to denote it’s instantaneous. However, I had overlooked that the spell created a new magic ‘force’ bow and arrows, as Cory Magel pointed out, so the PC can’t use her +40 Elven bow and extra critical flame arrows. She’ll have to decide on using 6 conventional attacks, or 12 attacks with a force bow.
Cheers,
DW

[Hurin]

And then the Force Bow only works for a maximum of 2 attacks per round too, as per Cory's observation.

[EltonJ]

Still, you can look on the internet a video of a man shooting fast and accurate with a bow. However, I think sixteen attacks in one round is ridiculous.  No one can be that fast.  Not even Orlando Bloom can do that, and there are videos of him training with the bow.  I think 6 attacks maximum should be allowed.  Let me find that video for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk&t=90s

[Spectre771]

And then the Force Bow only works for a maximum of 2 attacks per round too, as per Cory's observation.

Which is a huge limiter and seems to "self-regulate" the issue we're discussing.  The PC (or player) would have to choose which combo of spells will work best in the situation.

@Dalewarrior, right with you on the math.  I'd be looking for 6 max attacks especially since the spell only allows 2 attacks.  In this example. Haste = 2 attacks, Adrenals = 2 initial attacks doubled = 4, Longbow spell allows max of 2 attacks = +2 more attacks = 6.  I would allow the spell to be cast if there is enough action left in the round but I don't see any way of allowing 16 attacks in 1 round.

[Majyk]

I’m too stringent as a GM with what Cory pointed out, but I always reply with, “would you want to be attacked by my NPCs eith the same ruling?”.
That usually ends the rules-pape and rillaging…


*max 2 attacks round* would be just that no matter what Haste or Speed rules one wants to apply.

So almost fitting what JDale said above re: RMU, but in RM2/RMSS context, you can do whatever you want with your 2-300%(additive in my games vs multiplicative and not combinable) activity in a round, but the max of two energy shots from the bow is set at 2 total and no more.

After that, the bow could still be used for regular arrow loading and firing but at normal activity use, so a grand total of *maybe* 4-5 which is including the previous 2.

[Dalewarrior]

Cool video!

Haste spells, Spell Law 3.6, p. 9,
‘A hasted person could fire a bow, move, and then melee, or attack twice in a melee phase (once at the beginning and once at the end).
A hasted character may not fire more than twice a round.
Casting more than one spell/round is still prohibited.’

So the number of missile attacks would depend on,
2 missile attacks (normal action); 4 attacks (AM Speed); 6 attacks (+2 attacks from the Longbow spell).

All, thanks again for your advice. 

[MisterK]

Cool video!

Haste spells, Spell Law 3.6, p. 9,
‘A hasted person could fire a bow, move, and then melee, or attack twice in a melee phase (once at the beginning and once at the end).
A hasted character may not fire more than twice a round.
Casting more than one spell/round is still prohibited.’

So the number of missile attacks would depend on,
2 missile attacks (normal action); 4 attacks (AM Speed); 6 attacks (+2 attacks from the Longbow spell).

All, thanks again for your advice. 

How can you go higher than 2 attacks per round ?
The spell says "a hasted character may not fire more than twice a round". It doesn't restrict that statement, which, in my book, means that regardless of how many haste effects you stack, you cannot fire (or attack) more than twice per round. You can use the extra activity to do something else such as cast a spell or move.

The Long Bow spell does not increase activity available. Furthermore, it is explicitly stated that it is equivalent to the Short Bow spell (except for the weapon type created), and the Short Bow spell says "this spell may also, if needed, create arrows at a maximum rate of 2 per round". The thing is, this maximum rate *is not increased by haste* (it's not character activity, it's spell effect) and has nothing to do with the number of attacks you can do - it just provides ammo. In the end, You create a bow of force that allows you to fire up to twice a round without reloading (because the bow reloads itself instantly), and that's all - it you attack more than twice for any reason, the Long Bow spell has no further effect : it creates the weapon and creates two arrows per round. It does not increase the number of attacks you can make. I would indeed remove the reloading activity % required up to twice, but not more.

Additionally, I would say that haste effects are additive, not multiplicative. So haste does not double the number of attacks, it adds 100% activity. Adrenal Speed also adds 100% activity.

So in the end, you get :
100% activity, + 100% for Haste, + 100% for AM Speed.
You cannot attack more than twice per round.
The Longbow spell provides two 'instant reload' per round.
In the end, you spend 120% activity to fire twice without penalty (2x60%), which leaves you with 180% activity do do something else - cast a spell, move, perform your AM, whatever.

Powerful, yes, but not game-breaking.

As a side note, I must say that I've always been reluctant to allow two-weapon combo characters to attack twice in a round. After all, having two weapons does not allow you to parry twice as much. My take is that using two weapon combo gives you a bonus to attack (it makes your attack more difficult to parry or evade). Which is, from a balance point of view, commensurate with the bonus you get from using a shield.

[Dalewarrior]

I agree with you on the Longbow spell MisterK.
But I thought AM Speed doubled your missile attacks from 2 to 4.