Topic: Shadow World RMU introductory adventure?

[Nightblade42]

Anything released should weave RMU into SW as a way of combining the the IP.  The RM rule-set should be tweaked to properly reflect SW (which is already better than previous versions of RM IMO).  So, that a new player is playing a SW game not a RM game.

I agree, RMU's entry module needs to be a SW module.  And tweaking the rules to reflect SW is also a must in order to properly marry RMU to SW.  Terry, Nicholas & everyone at ICE should be sitting down & deciding what SW area should be used as the entry point (Green Gryphon or Eidolon make a lot of sense for many reasons.  Also, re-working adventures from other modules (e.g. Spider Goddess) would also work & be a quick way to get the intro module put together (with some new updates to spice things up).  Again, I think there is a willing community of RMU playtesters who would be willing to help with stat conversion (since I know Terry prefers the RM2 ruleset (as do I  )).

But that's just my 2¢s…

Nightblade ->--

Green Gryphon started as a small adventure but ballooned! But it is good setting. Maybe I am naive (and/or ignorant) but I don't understand the angst about going to RMU. We already use RM Classic  (And yes I prefer it, because I know it!  ) and RM RMSS stats (converted by a third party) and they seem very similar to me. Certainly this is a small jump compared to converting to D&D... ?

And feel free to correct me; I promise not to be offended. I feel for Nicholas, because I will probably not learn RMU, so he will need someone to convert it for SW future book stats.

One question: it was suggested that with RMU we revise the page layout. I am for it, but not for wasteful gunk in the margins like 'Powers' but of course we want to use color. Any thoughts?

Believe me Terry, I'm an old RM2 guy like you & I'm still not fully sold on RMU.  However, I think ICE as a business needs to put most of their Rolemaster efforts into RMU - which means SW for RMU.  I fully understand why you will continue to create, update & write SW modules using the RM2/RMC ruleset (as I do with my own world of Nytheun).  I'm sure ICE can find many people willing to convert your RM2/RMC stats to RMU.  So yes, I feel for Nicholas as well.

I also agree about the "gunk" - more room for material & less fluff that fills the margins.  Keep up the great work Terry!

Nightblade ->--

[Neee-Wom]

What I really miss about Rolemaster today and ICE is the lack of adventures, short modules to introduce people or throw when the PC goes in an unexpected way.

RMU could be an excellent way to start with that, I would start with Lvl 1 adventures, at least 2 or 3. Later ICE can follow with longer works.

I always thought that the way MERP was introduced was excellent, you had ready-to-run, modules that fleshed the land and campaigns for full kingdoms.

I own all SW books and I will keep buying everything by TKA, but I would like to buy more 

[Terry K. Amthor]

What I really miss about Rolemaster today and ICE is the lack of adventures, short modules to introduce people or throw when the PC goes in an unexpected way.

RMU could be an excellent way to start with that, I would start with Lvl 1 adventures, at least 2 or 3. Later ICE can follow with longer works.

I always thought that the way MERP was introduced was excellent, you had ready-to-run, modules that fleshed the land and campaigns for full kingdoms.

I own all SW books and I will keep buying everything by TKA, but I would like to buy more 

Actually, Nicholas and I discussed the idea of very short modules. I am in the planning stage of writing one, perhaps for RMU, depending on which is finished first. As you may know,each of the https://www.rpgnow.com/product/23297/Guild-Adventurer-1?manufacturers_id=461&it=1 Guild Adventure books has a SW adventure also.

[Witchking20k]

Everything I write is in the short, broad brushstroke variety that I learned from MERP and the SW modules.  Setup, task, NPCs, Maps, and Monsters....done.  Let the GM have creative license over the details.  It's not that I dislike the fully detailed modules from other games; it's that I feel like I'm playing their story, not collaborating to write one of our own.

[MisterK]

Everything I write is in the short, broad brushstroke variety that I learned from MERP and the SW modules.  Setup, task, NPCs, Maps, and Monsters....done.  Let the GM have creative license over the details.  It's not that I dislike the fully detailed modules from other games; it's that I feel like I'm playing their story, not collaborating to write one of our own.

The problem I personally have with this approach is the "task" part. It makes all adventures appear very mercenary-like - this was one of my major gripes with the SW/MERP/SpM adventure format, and the main reason I never used any single one - in all my years as a GM, I never GMed a session where the "task" was pre-set.

I'd rather have a detailed setup, one or (preferably) more conflicts, and, optionally, predefined characters with motivations to resolve some of the conflicts. For instance, the old Vog Mur module never laid out any "task" for the players to complete - the setup was described and detailed, and several conflicts were pretty much obvious - that's the kind of adventure I wish to see published: settings to explore and conflicts to resolve (Vog Mur, Cloudlords of Tanara and Iron Wind are still the benchmark against which I rate all modules).

[egdcltd]

The problem I personally have with this approach is the "task" part. It makes all adventures appear very mercenary-like - this was one of my major gripes with the SW/MERP/SpM adventure format, and the main reason I never used any single one - in all my years as a GM, I never GMed a session where the "task" was pre-set.

I'd rather have a detailed setup, one or (preferably) more conflicts, and, optionally, predefined characters with motivations to resolve some of the conflicts. For instance, the old Vog Mur module never laid out any "task" for the players to complete - the setup was described and detailed, and several conflicts were pretty much obvious - that's the kind of adventure I wish to see published: settings to explore and conflicts to resolve (Vog Mur, Cloudlords of Tanara and Iron Wind are still the benchmark against which I rate all modules).

That sounds as if you prefer a more sandbox approach to adventures (I'm personally fond of hex crawls and similar).

[Witchking20k]

I like them both.  But, when we're talking about writing an adventure that usually implies a set story arch.  And lets face it, just because the task is there, doesn't mean it's going to be what the PCs end up doing, right?   That is essentially my favorite element of a table top RPG.  Best laid plans that go awry generally lead to better gaming.

[Hurin]

I love Cloudlords and Iron Wind as settings, but not really as adventures. I'd like to have both: great setting books like those old ones, and some new adventures that are more focused like the better DnD adventures or the Pathfinder adventure paths. I've always felt that RM was a bit lacking the latter: they don't have to be 'on the rails' adventures, but a bit more things like boxed text, different acts, a more GM-Friendly walkthrough, would all be appreciated (by me, at least).

[Siltoneous]

I personally love the deep setting source book, with skeleton adventure ideas, particularly those that suggest how they might integrate into a larger picture.  When it's done well (for example: Eidolon/Sel-Kai), I feel it gives a new GM a handy, ready to access setting that is detailed enough to draw nuance and flavor from, but not so tightly wound that there isn't room for their ideas. Zeitgeist: The Dying Skyseer is another good example of this.

I've been very happy delving deep into the Eidolon and Sel-Kai setting.  I'm currently running it as a big sandbox for our group.  I do GM away from heavy Canon character interaction, but having that deep background detail to draw inspiration from helps enormously.  It also helps (but beyond this conversation) is the Loremaster Legacy book.  Great detailed information the source book only hinted at. =)

[Neee-Wom]

Actually, Nicholas and I discussed the idea of very short modules. I am in the planning stage of writing one, perhaps for RMU, depending on which is finished first. As you may know,each of the https://www.rpgnow.com/product/23297/Guild-Adventurer-1?manufacturers_id=461&it=1 Guild Adventure books has a SW adventure also.

I have all of them but this is not what I meant except maybe for Rose Petals and Snow Lions. I think we need more books like Green Gryphon but shorter, focused in areas that have been covered in books with a broader scope.

E.g. Short book with 3 linked adventures detailing fights against Praeten/Xooba pirates, the PC could start in Kaitaine or Sel-Kai, or even Lethys.


My games are not either mercenary in the sense of a band of adventurers like I have seen in some D&D, that vision does not work for me. But sometimes you need to get some crunchy data. These days I am running a game where one PC has to go from Celebi to Rapata just to check if the old highway is still ok and Ulor could invade Saral using Xa-ar. What I am doing is to throw encounters from other games that I find interesting for rural areas, righ now the road is the adventure.

At the same time, other PC travelled to Rapata by skyship from Lethys and I'm using material from Xa-ar book, in this case, the city and the factions are enough to keep him occupied.

[Hurin]

The old 'Tales of the Loremasters' Shadow World books used to be short adventures, or collections of adventures. They weren't always so closely linked together as say a DnD or Pathfinder module, but they were the sort of adventure that you could slot into a wider campaign when you needed something you could plug and play.

[Neee-Wom]

The old 'Tales of the Loremasters' Shadow World books used to be short adventures, or collections of adventures. They weren't always so closely linked together as say a DnD or Pathfinder module, but they were the sort of adventure that you could slot into a wider campaign when you needed something you could plug and play.

The problem with 'Tales...' was the quality, between terrible and the pits, we talk about extremely generic adventures or just encounters and many of them were difficult to fit in a game linked to canon. Almost every adventure module for SW looked like somebody submitted the adventure they had been running in a completely different milieu and adapted using 3 or 4 terms from the Atlas.



Many years ago I started to write an adventure following a Scribe of Nomikos with a Changramai guard doing grave robb...archeology, it was an easy way to introduce concepts while playing, unfortunately I moved to another city and I never tested it with players.

[Hurin]

Many years ago I started to write an adventure following a Scribe of Nomikos with a Changramai guard doing grave robb...archeology, it was an easy way to introduce concepts while playing, unfortunately I moved to another city and I never tested it with players.

Maybe now might be the time to resurrect it -- as some of us look to put together introductory RMU adventures!

[Neee-Wom]

Maybe now might be the time to resurrect it -- as some of us look to put together introductory RMU adventures!

The skeleton was quite clear, the thing was that using a scribe of Nomikos as described in first edition of the Atlas helps to give missions with a good excuse.

The first one was meant to happen in Silaar, exploring some ruins in Thanor after a map had been acquired by Nomikos. The PC's could be the scribe and the Changramai bodyguard plus some people that they could meet in Sel-Kai, Nuyan-Khom or Reandor.

My objective was to use the adventure Tablets of Varna from Emer and maybe the adventure Sold when they were coming back to civilization. Unfortunately, my writing is all in  Spanish, but I could translate it and upload it to the Vault.

[Neee-Wom]

There has been some efforts in the past to make something like an Adventure Path for Kulthea, and I think it could be an excellent way to introduce the people to the game.

My election would be the Sea Drake Legacy from Jaiman book with a lot of tweaks, during a span of 5 years (6046-6051), the characters have to travel to the following places:

    • Gryphon
    • Prevan
    • Helyssa/ Vorn
    • Nomikos
    • Wuliris
    • Jamiil Targ
    • Arion
    • Velenna
    • Syrkara

And all of this happens while there is a civil war in Rhakhaan, the invasion of forces from Yarth and Lorgalis in Vorn, Norek and West Rhakhaan and the Storm Wizard intervention that makes travel almost impossible.

To start with that effort it would be necessary to make a deeper approach to Helyssa, Vorn and the other domains in the area, and the relationship within them.

When I run that campaign the first thing I changed was the knowledge that Kier has, if he knows everything about Crown, Sword and Pendant, why he should go to the Tower first? It seems more logical that he tries to go first to get the Crown if he thinks he's the right ruler of U-Lyshak. In the Gryphon college they know everything you need to know about Crowns.

So I decided Helyssa was a princedom and the ruling symbol was the Pendant, Kier wanted to recover the Pendant as the legitimate ruler of Helyssa, U-Lyshak was a glory from the past.

I was quite sure they would fail to recover the Pendant as attacking the Tower at low level seems suicide, so I put them in the middle of a big chaos between Yarth and Lorgalis forces, forced allies fighting agains each other so fleeing was easy. They had to flee to Norek as going north was difficult, and Boshkar would be happy to kill Kier if he finds him.

So in Norek, under siege by Lorgalis forces they knew about the Crown and the Sword and decided to head Nomikos.

I can develop a little bit more, but comments are welcome.

[Witchking20k]

So, to play devil's advocate, why does an introductory adventure have to entwine PCs in politics and world happenings?  Why can't it just be a short "go here, do this, and also you can learn about Essence Storms (or some other unique to SW aspect). 
I personally would have an introductory adventure have the PCs just on the outside of the real ebb and flow of the world.  Something like being commissioned to retrieve proof of birth-right for a young Noble looking to stay on the "good side" of a some civil unrest.  PCs don't really need to be swept into things IMO.  At low-levels they should be motivated by their purse and the survivability of the task at hand.
You can do some name-dropping and build the macro world through a short, tight adventure. 

[Neee-Wom]

I would say that if you want an introductory adventure for SW it has to get some of the flavor, it could be polictics, it could be travelling by navigator or the Essaence storm you mention. We only should flee from too generic adventures, unless we want it generic and not linked to this milieu.

[Siltoneous]

I would say that if you want an introductory adventure for SW it has to get some of the flavor, it could be polictics, it could be travelling by navigator or the Essaence storm you mention. We only should flee from too generic adventures, unless we want it generic and not linked to this milieu.

I agree.  There are multitudes of 'generic can-be-anything' modules and adventures available; I've bought dozens of dozens of them from DTRPG.  Yet they all have the flavor of packing peanuts; bland, bland, bland.  I agree that having a set of adventures that incorporates even a few important concepts from ShadowWorld gives not only an easier to tweak resource, but it helps give official definition and substance to those world concepts for new and existing players.

For example: Although not a 'module', several of my players have read the 1st Loremaster novel (thanks Terry).  Their appreciation of the world and the environment is leaps and bounds beyond what it would have been even after a dozen gaming sections. Like it or not, D&D tropes widely infect even generic modules. Having SW concept inclusive modules both help clarify the difference between that bias, and at the same time (IMHO) help negate that influence too.

Now, of course, SW 'flavor' can be added, and I personally think it's part of a  good GM's job.  However more often than not, that effort is a whole cloth rewrite; removing generic creatures, races, treasure and magical concepts big and small. I.e. I just tweaked a D&D Adventurers League module.  12 pages, and I bet I tweaked and rewrote 8 pages; in particularly removing and tweaking D&D-lite magical concepts, races, rewards not to mention the overall theme.

[Terry K. Amthor]

I would say that if you want an introductory adventure for SW it has to get some of the flavor, it could be polictics, it could be travelling by navigator or the Essaence storm you mention. We only should flee from too generic adventures, unless we want it generic and not linked to this milieu.

I agree.  There are multitudes of 'generic can-be-anything' modules and adventures available; I've bought dozens of dozens of them from DTRPG.  Yet they all have the flavor of packing peanuts; bland, bland, bland.  I agree that having a set of adventures that incorporates even a few important concepts from ShadowWorld gives not only an easier to tweak resource, but it helps give official definition and substance to those world concepts for new and existing players.

For example: Although not a 'module', several of my players have read the 1st Loremaster novel (thanks Terry).  Their appreciation of the world and the environment is leaps and bounds beyond what it would have been even after a dozen gaming sections. Like it or not, D&D tropes widely infect even generic modules. Having SW concept inclusive modules both help clarify the difference between that bias, and at the same time (IMHO) help negate that influence too.

Now, of course, SW 'flavor' can be added, and I personally think it's part of a  good GM's job.  However more often than not, that effort is a whole cloth rewrite; removing generic creatures, races, treasure and magical concepts big and small. I.e. I just tweaked a D&D Adventurers League module.  12 pages, and I bet I tweaked and rewrote 8 pages; in particularly removing and tweaking D&D-lite magical concepts, races, rewards not to mention the overall theme.

Wow I am so glad to read that your players have read the first SW novel and it helped them get a feel for the world so much! Please spread the word (in reviews) and I promise to work on book two in the next few weeks, as soon as Haalkitaine is done.

https://www.drivethrufiction.com/product/117364/The-Loremaster-Legacy?term=amthor

[Terry K. Amthor]

I would say that if you want an introductory adventure for SW it has to get some of the flavor, it could be polictics, it could be travelling by navigator or the Essaence storm you mention. We only should flee from too generic adventures, unless we want it generic and not linked to this milieu.

Yes it should have some SW flavor (unlike some of the generic crap I was forced to allow back in the early days) but need not be entwined in the more complex politics.