Author Topic: How common is magic?  (Read 3080 times)

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Offline Dr Jim

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How common is magic?
« on: November 12, 2018, 04:02:44 PM »
I'm pretty new to Kulthea (moving in from Middle Earth via Harn) and must say that I am so far impressed. The quality of the new material I have seen so far is very good and I am looking forward to reading more.
I have been looking through the Sel-Kai module and am wondering how commonplace magic is, not only in the city but the world. Is it a case of it exists but is very specialised? The common man is likely to know stories which may not be true (the sorcerer will turn you into a toad!), navigator travel is beyond the means of the vast majority, and magic colleges are only on remote islands or big cities?
I suppose the answer will vary from region to region but the impression I get is that it is nowhere near as common as other fantasy settings like the Forgotten Realms.

James

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Offline Peter R

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 04:09:50 PM »
I have only played in Shadow World, never run it but it had always been pressed upon my characters how essence storms would rage across the skies so I would say that the common person would be well aware of the existance and raw power of magic.
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 09:27:47 PM »
A good primer on magic and culture in ShadowWorld would be to read Terry's novel: The Loremaster Legacy (Shadowstone Chronicles Book 1)

Offline Spectre771

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 07:51:45 AM »
Is this a cop-out?  It's as commonplace as you want it to be. 

It's your gaming world, your setting, do you want a high magic world, balanced world, or secretive, protected, or guild-controlled?

The nature of my gaming world makes it on the rare side.  We play RM2 and the only magic allowed is Elemental Companion and Alchemy Companion.  By restricting the volume of spell lists and topics, I've limited magic in my world pretty heavily.  However, anyone can play any of those professions found in the two Companions and there are plenty of magic places and people in the world for the party to meet.  The party comes across a magic user in pretty much every session we play because it's still easy to learn in game.  Including all of the elemental creatures and constructs keeps the game varied and interesting.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 10:20:14 AM »
I would say Shadow World is pretty magical. It is not a world where magic is secret: there are tons of casters around, even if you just check the NPC lists at the back of various books.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 06:58:45 AM »
I would say Shadow World is pretty magical. It is not a world where magic is secret: there are tons of casters around, even if you just check the NPC lists at the back of various books.

Hurin is largely right, though the NPCs described in the books are unusual for one reason or another. Many have a natural aptitude for magic, but never develop it, because to really advance you need training. But overall, Shadow World has many Essænce users, unlike, say Tolkien's Middle-earth (though of course the ME RPG has many more spell-users).
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Offline Dr Jim

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2018, 02:34:26 PM »
Thanks for the replies. I can see how common knowledge of Essaence would be fairly widespread.
Not a cop out Spectre but just interested to know how people interperate Shadow World. One of the things I love about rpgs is finding out the different takes people have on the same system. For example I'd never considered limiting magic to the elemental & alchemy companions but it's a great idea and I can see how it would give the world a different spin. While I may not do exactly the same in a game I run I'll now certainly have this in my mind and consider if any limitations (magical or not) could enhance the game.

James
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Offline metallion

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 08:49:46 PM »
It depends on what you mean by common.  Everyone in Sel Kai has Eidolon right there floating in the sky above them, but none of the day laborers in South Commons have a magical cold box that lets their food go for days without rotting, so every day there's a trudge to the market.

Priests are Lankanok's main cash crop, but they still need to enslave a whole lot of folks to work the farms.  No Golems or elementals within grasp for such tasks.

Offline Dr Jim

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 03:44:52 PM »
By common I was meaning ease of access. Having just finished the Sel-Kai source book I think I have a better understanding. It seems that in a large metropolis like Sel-Kai the rich will be able to pay for whatever magical learning / assistantce they require (well within reason). The lack of any "Ye Olde Magic Shoppes" indicates to me that midtowners or lowtowners are not going to have an easy time, for purchasing or learning anyway. Of course I realise that in my game I can include whatever I like, but I'm just trying to get a handle on Terry's vision of his world.

James
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2018, 01:51:22 AM »
By common I was meaning ease of access. Having just finished the Sel-Kai source book I think I have a better understanding. It seems that in a large metropolis like Sel-Kai the rich will be able to pay for whatever magical learning / assistantce they require (well within reason). The lack of any "Ye Olde Magic Shoppes" indicates to me that midtowners or lowtowners are not going to have an easy time, for purchasing or learning anyway. Of course I realise that in my game I can include whatever I like, but I'm just trying to get a handle on Terry's vision of his world.

James

Definitely worth picking up a copy of Terry's book Loremaster Legacy in that case https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/117364
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2018, 01:57:19 AM »
The lack of any "Ye Olde Magic Shoppes" indicates to me that midtowners or lowtowners are not going to have an easy time, for purchasing or learning anyway. Of course I realise that in my game I can include whatever I like, but I'm just trying to get a handle on Terry's vision of his world.

They do have herbalists, whose ability to heal seems to border on the magical. They also have the temples that perform healing.

Offline Dr Jim

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2018, 04:57:22 AM »
Loremaster Legacy is on my wish list  :)
I did notice that there are a few herbalists scattered around the city, but would the prices (multiple gp) place their services out of the range of the average low towner? I suppose this would be as it was on earth where until relatively recently reliable medicine was out of the price range of most people

James
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2018, 12:21:23 PM »
Loremaster Legacy is on my wish list  :)
I did notice that there are a few herbalists scattered around the city, but would the prices (multiple gp) place their services out of the range of the average low towner?

I think it depends on what they need. Shop owners, skilled laborers, and some criminals could probably afford many of the herbs. The temple healing services are a different story, and are written in as a source of friction between one group of priestesses and their deity.

I think there are also a few ways to look at a game economy.

Bottom line for the players it's a reward system, so costs have to be set based on their enjoyment of game-play. Basic supplies have to be accessible, but you don't have to put every sundry they need in a storefront. The old Martial Arts Companion gave a really good suggestion for this. Martial Arts characters would learn new skills by joining a martial arts school; such a school would probably have tournaments, and would potentially have rivals. Accessing higher learning would require advancement in the school under the formal rules of the Martial Art.

Magic, and access to magical resources / training / items may have something similar. It's going to be more interesting to the players if there is personal story advancement as they build their character.

For the setting, an economy has to have the appearance of function, or in a dystopia the appearance of non-function. In a functional economy the shopkeepers have enough customers to make some degree of profit, and the average person has their own basic needs met. A cure for blindness might be out of reach for most, but a treatment for the symptoms of a cold might be accessible to many. The shopkeepers would have most of their needs met by the common people buying the inexpensive stuff, and the occasional major purchase by the well to do would be a bonus. The common folks don't need a set income, just come up with some rules for what they can and can't obtain at various class levels based on the feel you want for your settings Sel Kai. If you need the injustice of children routinely dying for lack of medicine, then the average person makes less than they need to get by.

Loremaster Legacy gives some good examples of shopkeepers, and patrons. It also has an example of the sort of people who may reside in Sel Kai for periods of time. Eidolin is sort of an Eden for the local nobles, and super rich. Sel Kai city has other nobles in Residence, and it's own rich.

It might be worth looking into how things worked during the golden period of a place like Venice or Bruges when deciding how you want to portray the background. In particular how people arranged apprenticeships might be useful, as would how people entered into the priesthood.

Magic shops need customers to survive like any other business, and won't exist in Sel Kai if they don't have patrons. You can of course add in a "Ye Olde Magic Shop" or two if you need one, or perhaps make such a service a part of another business. For example some of the dark temples might sell evil spell books or items if you have the right contacts, and if it serves their own goals to do so. Prices don't have to be coin, perhaps they want you to kidnap a child for tonight's sacrifice. A seer might have a selection of magic to sell to people, but only people his scrying shows to have a certain kind of destiny

Offline Dr Jim

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2018, 04:35:47 PM »
Thanks for the reply White Wolf. I think you hit the nail on the head saying that ultimately its the players (and GM's) enjoyment which is most important.

James
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Offline MisterK

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 10:38:26 AM »
I think, oddly enough, that spellcasting-for-hire would likely be more accessible, and probably cheaper, than most magic items, at least within the confines of a city (adventuring is another issue entirely), if only because of the resources involved.

I'm using the official RM spellcasting and alchemy rules as reference. Spellcasting requires Essaence, translated as Power Points. Those are replenished each day, and if you don't use them, they're wasted. Any caster who is not using his abilities for his own purposes is thus potentially on the market. Sure, the number of actual, trained casters is limited, but you have some in most large city temples and you have colleges that teach some magic in most large cities as well.

On the other hand, magic items require the one thing that is not replenishable: time. And lots of it. The number of magic items on the market is more a consequence of how many have been lost through the ages and recovered by... daring entrepreneurs... than of any significant day-to-day production, even for lesser items such as rune paper, potions, and wands - magic colleges certainly have stores for those, but they are probably not often for sale given the time required to make them. Or if they are, they are typically custom-made for a patron and priced according to the time spent in addition to the materials used in the alchemical process.

In short, my take on magic in the shadow world is that you are much more likely to be able to hire a seer to perform some magical investigation for you, than you are to get a magic item in a curio shop that provides even basic spellcasting powers. I think this is confirmed by both city books (Haalkitaine and Sel-Kai) in the description of shops and people.

This does not mean that it is straightforward - especially depending on the services looked for. I would assume that detection/analysis, investigation, healing, protection and perhaps enhancement would be easier to find and likely more easily accepted by the neighbourhood. Finding someone able to curse a target, on the other hand, might require more effort in addition to coin :) And if the Emperor of Rhakhaan has his personal truth sayer, it is likely that most nobles would try to emulate him on a lesser scale if they can.

Offline NanoEther

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2019, 11:10:38 PM »
I've been playing around with this for a while, trying to figure out a nice mix. One thing to remember is that just because some one has the capability doesn't mean that they have access to the training and just because they have access doesn't mean that they are well suited (have the right stats) to be proficient. My rule of thumbs are as follows

1 in 50 can cast maybe 2 training package spells
1 in 100 can cast 5 TP spells, OR a few open spells
1 in 500: 10 TP, OR 5 open, OR a few closed
1 in 1000: 10 open, OR 5 closed, OR a few base spells
...
1 in 50,000 can cast a few arcane spells
note that these are spells, not full lists.
The distribution could be even lower as the difficulty of the lists increase
(TP/Prosaic --> Open --> Closed --> Base --> Arcane)

Oh, and I do not require my NPCs to have 90s in prime stats, unless they're meant to be a threat to the PCs. So many of my magic using NPCs will never become very powerful.

Offline Jenkyna

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2019, 12:27:35 AM »
In my mind one advantage to minimizing magic using npcs, and / or minimizing npcs that use higher level magic is that they really stand out when you do use them. My feeling is that magic should be accessible enough that PCs can play magic using classes, but unusual enough that when powerful spell-casters make an appearance they don't seem commonplace. When a truly powerful being like a Dragonlord or a member of the The Circle appears the PC should see them as terrifying, a being that can rend the fabric of creation asunder and turn it against them, and be something unlike anything they have ever encountered before. That's harder to pull off if every street-corner illusionist is using real spells.

A bit off topic, but another way to play this up is to use the visual aspects of magic in Shadow World. Good aligned spell casters should use a soft touch when drawing essence from the world around them, while an evil caster should rip it from their surroundings in a display of callous disregard for any harm they may cause. The more powerful the caster the greater their control, and the effect becomes alternatively more subtle or more violent depending on allignment. An evil being rapes the world for what they need, while a good one treats the world as a partner.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 09:28:38 PM »
This is how common I believe magic is in Shadow World: If you use the RMSS/FRP rules, and you play an urban-cultured human you get 2 spell levels (basically a spell list up to level 2), just for growing up in a city. For me, that says everything about magic in the setting. It is a HIGH-fantasy setting, magic is much more common-place than the generic fantasy setting. (imo)
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: How common is magic?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2019, 10:57:24 PM »
This is how common I believe magic is in Shadow World: If you use the RMSS/FRP rules, and you play an urban-cultured human you get 2 spell levels (basically a spell list up to level 2), just for growing up in a city. For me, that says everything about magic in the setting. It is a HIGH-fantasy setting, magic is much more common-place than the generic fantasy setting. (imo)


In the shadow world players guide on page 15 it points out that spell users aren't all that uncommon, that many beings have the potential to be spell users, but it's rarer for them to have the training needed to really use magic. 

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I don't read the statement in the players guide to mean that magic is common; that's just me though. As a GM if your plots need trained magic users to be common then they can be common. I personally have zero objection to a high magic Middle Earth game, but a lot of people would disagree with me. It really boils down to what game do you want to run, and what your players want to play in.