Topic: Artifact armour.

[billybones]

I have in our recent campaign been playing a dual personality beast master/barbarian,who has finally been fixed and is now just a barbarian, but does have some of the beast master skills/lists. During questing I have acquired a set of demon skin armour which I have now had the option to have enchanted. I have left it with the mage in question to create a signature piece that really shows off his skill, mainly I did this as I didn't have a clue what I wanted done to it.

My question to the board is this, what cool armours have you had/developed, or what would you suggest as a good idea to have in/on the armour.

[Peter R]

This is going to sound weird but as a player I don't like powerful magic items. It is very easy to fall into the trap of you are only completing tasks because you have that armour, it changes  the way you fight or behave or it takes over your characters description.

I have a character that has three magic throwing knives. They are so powerful that over the past 10 levels I have developed other skills around them. They are throwing knives so I developed adrenal move speed, two weapon combo and thrown dagger in my off hand. I have developed my moving maneuver skills. I am considered the most dangerous member of our party but as a player I mostly feel like a delivery system for the these magic items. If I don't use them the party complains that I am not putting in the effort and I am putting them in danger. From the characters point of view would he not kill monsters with the best weapons he had? Would he choose to put himself in more danger and be more badly injured for no reason? I am basically trapped into using these weapons. I cannot even somehow contrive to lose them as they magically reappear if I try and get rid of them.

So that is the warning out of the way.

There are two weaknesses facing warriors. Movement, they can be really challenged by flying foes and bleeding out. A serious critical bleeding many a round or many small wounds bleeding a few each per round can take you down before you can get your armour off. Therefore two really useful powers to build into the armour would be movement and healing spells. Imagine armour that allowed you to to cast up to 20pts of spells from the Lofty Bridge list and 20pts of spells from a self healing list. That would make you near invincible.

I once had a suit of plate that cast waterbreathing. That was in an AD&D game and it saved my life a couple of time and was great for dealing with moats.

[Spectre771]

I once had a suit of plate that cast waterbreathing. That was in an AD&D game and it saved my life a couple of time and was great for dealing with moats.

Peter, you nailed it right on the head, in both sections of your post.

The over powered items take away from the gameplay, such as Artifacts.  It's awesome to have one, but if it's overpowered, you are stuck playing in over powered campaigns, or the party complains that you are either A) Killing too easily and they sit back and send you in, or B) you are leaving them helpless while they take a pounding and you play it safe.  Forget that you are trying to play your character's personality in-game... if it's not what the party likes, they get upset. 

Example: Lvl 8 Cavalier.  Shield Slayer Battle Axe.  Destroys shields on first hit. Treat all armour as AT1.  Not to mention I do double damage due to a high STR stat and I have Gauntlets of Might that allow double damage for the first 5 rounds of combat.  For 5 rounds, I am doing x4 Damage vs. AT 1 with 2H Battle Axe.  All too often I heard "Just send the Cavalier in, we'll look over here for the <fill in the blank>."  I ended up making a new character to play just so I could be "part of the party" again.

Now, the second part, and more on topic perhaps... the best armour we had in the party was Armour of Water Breathing.  AT20. Encumbers as AT12.  Allows wearer to breath underwater normally.  That opened up a new set of possibilities for the player once we hit the ocean and waterways of our campaign.  He never took a skill in swimming and the Elf Maiden was aware of that when she revived his waterlogged body so he was granted this armour.  What ended up happening was a battle on ship that we were getting hammered on pretty badly.  The Fighter got desperate and did a Tackle/Grapple and pulled the leader over the edge of the boat.  They sank like lead, he held on until the foe drowned, then he resurfaced.

IMO, that's not really what I would consider an "Artifact Level" armour.  I do have C&T-I with me and "Artifact" grade armour and weapons are in the +40 to +50 DB/OB range, High protection, lower encumbrances, rare material, innate spells, and often times a Will or Int associated with them.

What level is the crafter?  Is he going to be crafting an Artifact for you?  The item can't have level properties greater than those of the crafter.  It sounds like you have free reign over what you would like in the armour.  That being said, and still IMHO not what I would consider an artifact. 

AT12 (Since you stated Demon Hide)
Protects as AT20 (Demon hide is very tough)
0 Encumbrance (by nature of being "skin" and skin doesn't encumber)
Fire resistance - immune to all natural fire (Since it's a Demon)
+35DB Fire Resistance vs. magical sources

Those seem to be "naturally" occurring features for Demon armour.  Then add these properties from the crafter:

Water breathing (Because it's awesome to have in emergencies)
Swimming (+5 ranks)


If you wanted it to be Artifact quality I would add more to it

+40 DB (Mithril Plate of the Dwarfs is +50 (C&T-I). In our world, Mithril is the penultimate metal to have.  There are other materials that are better, but for metals, it's Mithril)

If wearer is grappled, foe takes automatic +35 C Heat crit until he lets go of wearer

Int - Low:  While owner is still alive, if anyone other than the owner tries to wear the armour, wearer takes +35E Heat and +35E Krush crits as the armour tries to squeeze the foe out.


IMO, just try to play off of what would seem "natural" to the material, then enhance it a bit and add a little story to it.  The armour protects from heat as being part of a demon.  That stored up heat energy gets released against a foe if you are grappled as the spirit of the Demon is angered by the hostile action.  Some of the Demon's Intelligence is still imbued in the skin as it refuses to let go of its grip to the mortal plane of existence and the only way it can maintain its tentative grasp in this physical plane is through the continued existence of its skin, so it will use what remaining power it has to keep you alive, for it knows that you are strong, worthy, and capable of maintaining its continued existence.

+40DB as it is skin and not metal.  If it were Mithril, I would give +45 or +50 even.
Skin, for the wearer, is AT1 IMO, so no encumbrance. If you were naked, you are AT1 and no encumbrance. LOL
Water Breathing because it's freaking awesome!
Swimming, because it's good to be able to move around a bit while you are underwater.

[Peter R]

Too be fair he doesn't say it is an artifact level item. He describes it as a signature piece.

I think I was 'cured' of magic item envy by a GM who would give out many items over time but when he thought we were over encumbered would drop us down the side of a moutain, off a ship, in the Anduin river or anywhere where we would have to roll some sort of luck roll for every single piece of kit we owned unless there was a good reason why it could not be lost. You could not lose your shirt if you had kept your breastplate for example.

Having lost everything too often I started to see all magic items as transitory and 'expected' to lose them. My GM then stopped taking items off me because he stopped getting the reaction he wanted of outrage that he got from the other players. I would often give away magic items if they were better suited to another player. Eventually I think it was just assumed that I had very little in the way of magic items but I was still picking them up and I am pretty sure that I had far more than most of the other players but I was never given a dunking because everyone thought that I didn't have much in the way of magic.

My thief, the one with the magic daggers, has a thing about never owning more than he can carry on his person. I have no saddle bags and nothing left anywhere. If I cannot carry it I don't need it. Our warrior and our mage are both terrible hoarders of magic items. One of the first decent treasures we earned was a pair of laen glass broadswords. I suggested that the warrior and I should have one each. The warrior was desperate to have both so I let him have them. The next magic broadsword we found I had, it turned out to be +20 and did a secondary B Electrical critical. The laen glass swords were just +20. So despite me being willing to just give up one ofthe laen glass blades I still ended up better off. I suspect that I have the five most powerful magic weapons in the party if you count the three daggers seperately. The warrior has a magic greatsword, three broadswords, magic mace, magic longbow, two magic shields, four hand axes, magic platemail, one superior helm and a magic helm. He actually needs the magician to act as a porter just to move him from one place to another and the magician, I think, has a longsword that he can use, his own shield, three staves and a rod plus pouches, backpack and untold other equipment including a tent and all the party cooking pots pans and utencils. If the GM ever reads the ESF rules the magician will disappear in a flash of failed magic the next time he so much as tries to use a cantrip.

[Spectre771]

The title of the thread is "Artifact Armour" 


I've had a similar experience with one GM in particular who used to love enforcing encumbrance penalties, and the interference of magical fields of too many magic items in close proximity to each other.  It was the rationale behind "You can only wear two magical rings at one time."  We wouldn't be forced to swim/fall or lose items, but that really annoying magic item that was a pain to the GM would be making RR vs. Breakage more often than normal until the PC stopped using it for fear of it breaking.... or it just broke.

As GM, I had one crit that read "...weapon breaks."  It was a magical weapon so I let it have a RR and instead of breaking, the PC lost the grip on it and the dragon flew away bleeding PEM along the countryside so they had a chance to at least track the beast down to finish the task and to attempt to recover the item.

[Peter R]

I like the weapon breaks criticals and the damaged greaves/helm rules in RM.

I obviously didn't pay much attention to the topic title!

I would be scared if the GM gave me armour like that, what's the catch?

+40DB, AT 20 wears as AT1 Demon skin armour, attracts 1-10 Pale V each full moon. Demons attempt to ambush the wearer attacking with surprise from as many sides as possible.

+40DB, AT 20 wears as AT1 Demon skin armour, hits lost to bleeding are never healed as the demonic flesh infects wounds.

That is the sort of thing that would happen to me.

[Spectre771]

I would be scared if the GM gave me armour like that, what's the catch?

+40DB, AT 20 wears as AT1 Demon skin armour, attracts 1-10 Pale V each full moon. Demons attempt to ambush the wearer attacking with surprise from as many sides as possible.

+40DB, AT 20 wears as AT1 Demon skin armour, hits lost to bleeding are never healed as the demonic flesh infects wounds.

That is the sort of thing that would happen to me.

Now THAT is cool.  But I think we'd be wading into the "Cursed/Partially cursed" items.  I have a "Cursed" Battle Totem.  Under normal conditions, it relieves all rounds of stun for the wearer.  But this one was broken in battle by a beautiful E-Crit to the chest.  The original owner argued that the magical totem was in the way and IT should get the RR instead of his non-magical armour and non-magical skin.  So it failed the RR and was broken cleanly in half and relieves stun only for the first 5 rounds, then the wearer takes double stun from crits. 

In fact, I think I am going to use a similar version of that in my campaign.  Someone will get an item that resists heat or cold elemental attacks, but every night, the hot od cold spirit trapped inside gets out and attacks the party to try to free itself.  It if dies, it's banished back into the item.

[Peter R]

It is demon skin for gawds sake, if I rule the world there is no way it is going to turn out to be all sweetness and light and besides I was just saying the way things go for me; that is what I would probably end up with.

[jdale]

I must say I am in agreement -- if you gird yourself in demon, it's got to have an effect. Also, as a GM I like items which grant advantages linked to disadvantages.

As for magic items overshadowing the character, my PC's items largely are superior forms of things he can otherwise do. E.g. a cloak of shadow (casts the Shadow spell 2/day, duration until removed) and boots/gloves of spider climb (1/day, also duration until stopped). I am approaching the point (maybe a few more levels...) where it might be more sensible to give them to another party member, I can get by without them. So rather than forcing the character into a certain role, they simply cemented the role I would have anyway.

[Peter R]

That I whole heartedly agree with. Give a Fighter a +10 or +20 sword and you have none nothing but enhance his own ability. My main character is a thief (20th level). One of his magic items are a pair of boots that allow teleport (as 10th level) twice a day. I can get so far using climbing, stealth and security skills but these allow him to do that little bit more, to cross an 'impossible' barrier, to get past a ring of guards. It doesn't change who he is but it gives him a little bit 'more'. I often do more sneaking around to be able to study a landing place sufficiently well than if I just broke in in the first place. I often masquarade as a wizard I know five spell lists to 5th level and with a couple of daily items allowing me to cast higher level spells, like teleport it is enough to convince a peasant that he is in the presence of a wizard.

The one magic item he covets that another player in the group has is a necklace that gives 20pp to be used with alluring ways (houri list) up to 20th level. As far as the character is concerned that would make him a proper wizard. He can convince people to see things his way just be force of personality and he can dupe as well as scooby doo but magic is just special.

Uber powerful items though and you get the tail wagging the dog.

[Tommi]

What level is the crafter?  Is he going to be crafting an Artifact for you?  The item can't have level properties greater than those of the crafter.  It sounds like you have free reign over what you would like in the armour.  That being said, and still IMHO not what I would consider an artifact. 

I don't consider that caster needs to be of same level as item. To do items that are directly related to level is process called crafting. Making an artifact is going over certain limit:
 - Using special places ( mount doom, some great node, etc.) that by nature infuse things with magical energy that may not be entirely in makers control.
- Using special sacrifices: items, lifeforce, somehow contained mana (jewels)
-Using special material
- making deals with imbedded intelligence - demons, angels, other souls - These spririts would effect the process and possibly make item greater than it would normally be.
- potent item may "grow" to be artifact or end in being some bizarre situation that infuses some extra power to it...
-Lord research at some cases may produce "random" artifact


I used to play - evil magician to high level (50) that got interested in alchemy around level 20. He learned all Alchemist spell lists to lvl50. He made mostly magical weapons but all those were pieces of fine craftsmanship. Some took 20 years to make but were made along rules e.g  black eog Dag with VH intelligence and constant spells and at will spells etc.

However he managed to make one  minor "artifact": He imbedded one of his rivals (lvl 45 illusionist, my emage was a bit lower)  and a terrorite demon in an amulet. I needed to research several spells etc. (spell that froze alchemical process and allowed breaks during crafting, spell that allowed to eject the soul out of the sword while not destroying it, whole life essence imbedding list to lvl 50 etc.)    Took me a couple of years in real time while my mage finished it at lvl 50.  He used most options above.

                   
 

[Peter R]

I think players making items using skills they have developed and enemies they have defeated is fine. The rules exist, you invested development etc. Go for it. I have never had a 50th level character and probably never will have. There is no fundamental difference between a 5th level character creating a rune and a 50th level one creating an artifact-esk item.

Giving a magician carte blanch to do what they like to your demon skin armour is not a decision I would take lightly. It would be like giving Jeremy Clarkson your car keys and telling him to do what he likes to it.

It is entirely possible that this armour is the entry point to a future adventure and the choices you make now will have consequences later.

As a GM such an item, I would say, is too good to pass up as a plot device.

[Cory Magel]

I have not read through this, just commenting on the initial post.

My primary 'want' if getting armor enhanced would be lower penalties, hit absorption, or critical reduction.  Why?  Cause if I'm wearing armor I want the way I'm enhancing it to have the benefit I put the armor on for in the first place and, therefore, to be applicable as widely as possible with that purpose in mind.  Basically I'm thinking about whatever *I* want that will benefit me the way *I* want it to.  But that's a munchkin outlook to a good degree.   So....

There are lots of possibilities from a roleplaying standpoint.  Protection from Evil, doesn't not show up in "detect good" attempts, protection from whatever elemental (or similar) power the demon had, maybe grants a lower version of an innate ability the demon had... etc.  Basically, what makes the most sense give the item and the 'crafters' abilities?

I am a fan of seriously powerful items having negative side effects too.  Assuming that's the case here, maybe the armor makes you show up as evil!

[Spectre771]

I am a fan of seriously powerful items having negative side effects too.  Assuming that's the case here, maybe the armor makes you show up as evil!

That is an excellent point.  I should have added that to my earlier list of "things that seem to be natural for a demon" attributes.  The armour's aura, or whatever you choose to call it, appears as the same alignment as the Demon.  That seems to be a very natural thing to have.  Perhaps, over time, it becomes a battle of wills between the armour and the wearer to not be corrupted by that effect.


For seriously powerful items in my world, I've tried to find a way to keep them manageable and within the gameplay levels of the parties using them.  We had one GM who just gave out items because he thought they were "really cool."  That tended to throw off the balance a bit for other GM's who stepped in afterward.

[billybones]

Some great answers, I took have a DM who wiliest likely take this as a plot point and almost certainly give me something negative in the switch. I am thinking that he will most likely give me something like critical reduction but tie it to a hit point cost, so removing an A critical costs 10hp B 20hp and so on. I'm also hoping as I have a bonded animal (jaguar) that I get something like gaining movement and manoeuvre of bonded animal and Ma strike do an additional medium claw attack.

[Marrethiel]

Have a look at the Chaos Knight (I think that's what  its called) which has random chaos abilities. Talk to the GM and agree on a couple of them that would be fun to play with. Being demon armour it should most certainly have demonic feel about it. Kinda like Elric's sword, nasty but way cool at the same time.

[billybones]

Okay so I got the amour back today. It came with its own mini quest, in that it needed to have the blood of a half-demon poured over it, and the blood had to be given freely. There was a half demon a few days ride away that would fight with terms (first blood, near death, death), blood spilt in that fight would be deemed freely given. So we squared off having agreed to near death and then I severed an artery in his leg first round (I love role master), needless to say I got the blood, although it did cost us several thousand in herbs saving him.

The armour essentially has three abilities and I'm not sure whether I am better off or not. The main part is that it has automatic deflections missile and melee in it, not sure of the spells but -50 to ob essentially. These cost 2hp for missiles and 4hp for melee, however any bleeding damage is doubled and always bleeds out. The last thing it does is for every 10hp worth of bleeding damage it increases my initiative by 10 points, as I say not 100% whether this is armour is a good thing, I've also given away more than 1 promise/favour for this I reckon I'm getting bitten on the arse any time now…….

[Peter R]

Rather you than me!
Good luck with that.

[Spectre771]

Okay so I got the amour back today.......

Ehhhhhh.  I'm not sure I would even wear that!   You're paying so much in HP and blood loss.   I would just Parry, parry, parry.

I concur.... Better you than me. 

[Peter R]

Firstly, I have a natural affinity for Heroes rather than villains. I have only ever played one evil character (an evil mentalist).

I would be very reluctant to wear anything diabolical.

Lets face it, looking back at all the posts, none of us think this is going to end well.