Topic: Ambidextrous and two one handed weapon combat in RMC?

[C.Tozer]

Hi all

I have done a bit of poking around this site and few searches and I can't seem to see anything much on the topic of ambidextrous characters and using two one handed weapons in combat. Apologies if I have missed something or am going over old group.

Firstly to explain I am returning to gaming after around 15+ years of not GMing so am taking a while get my head around how the rules should work and how I used to GM. I am fan of RM2 but feel that the % based round, and generally tidier format in Rolemaster Classic seems better. I guess you could say I am using a bit of both of the systems, very similar I know + the old RM Companions.

I am trying to get my head around a fair way of assigning both skill development and combat rules for a character in my game who is ambidextrous.

While in the original RM2 C&C it does quickly touch on ambidextrous characters from what I can see RMC seems silent on the topic. In both Arms Law in RM2 and RMC it mentions that you just have to simply train with another weapon in the other hand (at -20 assuming you are not ambidextrous) - ie no special skill required. In the later RM2 Companions the Two Weapon Combo (TWC) Skill is introduced in RMCII and then amended in later companions.

Some questions please:

1. By my read the TWC skill appears to simply exist to allow you to attack more than one foe and to reduce the -20 for the off hand? For an ambidextrous who doesn't want to attack more than once there would be no point in learning this additional skill correct?
2. Assuming one is trained in TWC can they parry more than one attack on them and if so, at what penalty?
3. Should an ambidextrous character have to train in their off hand at all? According to C&C RM2 p.80 "then he is ambidextrous and can use either or both hands with the same skill rank at will" it would appear that this is not the case - ie if you know how to use dagger-right hand you don't need to train for dagger-left hand. This makes an ambidextrous  very powerful not only not getting the -20 for the off hand but also not having to pay skill development costs for that hand too.

Look forward to your thoughts.

Thanks

[Old Man]

Hmmm, my response if prefaced by I don't use TWC ... I had Ambidexterity remove the -20 for off-hand. An off-hand skill in a weapon is still required. Attacking two-different foes was a -20 to each (somewhat like the Martial Artist's penalty). I would allow you to split your parry versus any number of attacks from foes you could have attacked (based on facing), but dividing beyond a couple usually wasn't worth it.

Hope that helps,
Old Man

[C.Tozer]

Thanks for your suggestion Old man - certainly what you are suggesting makes everything a whole lot simpler. Appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Any other thoughts out there from anyone else?

[dutch206]

Make ambidexterity worth one background option, and have it completely remove the off-hand penalty.  FYI--The only version of "Two weapon fighting" in my campaign is rapier plus main gauche to parry.

[Old Man]

Make ambidexterity worth one background option, and have it completely remove the off-hand penalty.  FYI--The only version of "Two weapon fighting" in my campaign is rapier plus main gauche to parry.

I do the same as Dutch - Ambidexterity is 1 option (or 100 pts if you use ROCO IV).

[JohnD]

I made it a little more hard to get.

You have to develop ranks in both weapons as primary first, then develop ranks in one a primary and one as secondary... kind of a 2-weapon combination.  Ranks in the primary/secondary combination can't be greater than the number of ranks developed in either weapon as the primary.

So, for example you have Long Sword, Dagger - both primary weapons.  Then Long Sword (primary) and Dagger (off-hand) as two separate skills.

[Cory Magel]

RMSS user here... but there's no reason any of this won't work just fine in RM2/RMC imo.
All this is how I use it...

1. When you fight with two weapons you have -20 with your 'off' hand.
2. If you are not a pure arms user you take -10 off both attacks if you are using a full sized sword in one hand and the other weapon is not smaller than it (Broadword/Shortsword, Shortsword/Shortsword, Shortsword/Dagger, and Dagger/Dagger are ok, but not Broadsword/Broadsword).
3. When you fight with two weapons you must develop each weapon skill separately, even if it is the same weapon.  So, you must develop 1HSword-Right Hand and 1HSword-Left Hand.
4. Your OB with the weapons cannot exceed your skill with the TWC skills (keep in mind you are only comparing skill totals, things like Magic bonuses apply after this restriction.
5. TWC means you can make two attacks for each attack action you declare - one with each weapon.  This is a more RMSS specific rule because melee attacks require 60-100%.  You don't want to have to have 120-200% in order use your TWC skill.
6. If you split the attacks with the two weapons among two foes you take an additional -20 penalty to both weapons attacks (however you may now parry both foes as a result).

Ambidexterity means you do not need to develop the off-hand weapon separately and removes the -20 off hand penalty.  So, any weapon you can use you can now use in either hand.  This saves the character a lot of DP if they are using two daggers, two swords, or just want to be able to swap which hand they are using their weapon in.  The -20 penalty still applies two non-pure arms users using two equal length weapons and you still need to develop the TWC skill.

So...
Fighter with two Broadswords takes a -20 penalty for the off-hand attack.
Paladin with two Broadswords takes a -10 penalty for the primary hand attack and -30 from the off-hand attack.  If the Paladin had a Broadsword/Shortsword combo it would only be the -20 from the off-hand.
If they both had Ambidexterity the Fighter would have no penalty while the Paladin would have a -10 penalty to both hands.  If the Paladin had a Broadsword/Shortsword combo it would have no penalties.

[Cory Magel]

The -20 penalty still applies two non-pure arms users using two equal length weapons and you still need to develop the TWC skill..

Oops, that should read the -10 penalty still applies to the non-pure arms users using two equal length full size weapons (i.e. on par with a broadsword/broadsword rather than a broadsword/shortsword).

[C.Tozer]

Hmmmm .. nice one thanks Cory. Again thanks for taking the time to respond. I like the idea of the penalty for the weapons of different length - makes sense in my opinion.

One question just so I am clear though:

According to the way you run things assuming you develop a weapon skill in each hand (for example right hand-broadsword and left hand-dagger) do you still require having a TWC skill to make two attacks vs. one opponent each round (but still restricting in terms of parry limitations - ie can only parry the one amount for each weapon)?

My kinda way of thinking is TWC allows you to do "additional things" with the skill - ie not have the -20 to the off hand and be able to fight and parry more than one foe at a time.
Whereas you can develop two separate skills, one in each hand, but still suffice -20 for the off hand (assuming not ambidextrous) and can only fight one foe.

Basically do you need TWC to make two attacks or not or can you still train separately in each hand and be more limited in what you can do according to your rules?

[C.Tozer]

Sorry make that read:

"Whereas you can develop two separate skills, one in each hand, but still suffer -20 for the off hand (assuming not ambidextrous) and can only fight one foe"

[NanoEther]

After watching Reclaiming the Blade I've come to agree with those being interviewed and the producers: the sport of fencing is to Western Martial Arts what the bow is to Eastern. It tells you very little about how a combat style would actually be used in real life. So I've changed my view to that of all combat skills are martial arts skills.
What this means is that you can engage multiple opponents with any skill, you get one attack per weapon per opponent, provided you have a non-negative OB (though I am considering dropping this). Your OB for the round is:
OB+(-20 x (number of opponents -1))-(any applicable position bonuses)
This OB can then be split up among the Targets, and the OB/DB split can vary between targets (to reduce record keeping you can force it into one of three options: full OB, same OB/DB split, full DB). Non-armor DBs must be split among the targets.

Examples: (A=attacker, T=targets, >=Facing) Assuming the Attacker is engaging all valid targets and the Attackers OB is 100:
T
A>T    100+(-20x(2-1))-(15); 85+(-20x1); 85-20=65

T
A>T
T         100+(-20x(3-1))-(15
15); 100+(-20x2)-(30); 70+(-40)=30

TT
 A>T
 T        100+(-20x(4-1))-(15+15+15); 100+(-20x3)-(45); 55+(60)=-5

The big question is: should the attacker be allowed to make any attacks in the last example? Right now, if the attacker ends up with a negative OB, it is applied to all attacks. The attacker is allowed to ignore a target, but he gets no bonus to DB beyond AT bonuses against that target for the round. An attacker also cannot voluntarily reduce his OB to a negative to boost his DB.

If a shield is used as nothing but a shield, the DB can be split among targets on the shield side (or it can just be rolled into the DB pool). If the attacker makes an unskilled attack with a shield, he suffers the -30 to OB and looses the shields parry bonus.

In the case of TWC, for each weapon, the attacker uses the lower of his weapon skill bonus or TWC bonus as his OB (100 long sword, 40 dagger, 50 TWC becomes 50 long sword, 40 dagger). Off hand attacks suffer the normal -20 unless he is ambidextrous, this is applied after the base OB of the weapons is determined (continuing the above, his 40 dagger becomes 20, not 30). Attempting TWC without the TWC skill results in a -30 TWC skill bonus; a GM may allow a similar TWC to be used with a penalty. Suggest that weapons being employed should be from the same weapon groups as the developed TWC, penalty to TWC should range from -30 to -15 depending on weapon similarity. When paired with a weapon, I consider most MA skills valid attack skills to use with TWC (strike, boxing, throw, grapple; crits often need to be modified).

[Cory Magel]

Hmmmm .. nice one thanks Cory. Again thanks for taking the time to respond. I like the idea of the penalty for the weapons of different length - makes sense in my opinion.
One question just so I am clear though:
According to the way you run things assuming you develop a weapon skill in each hand (for example right hand-broadsword and left hand-dagger) do you still require having a TWC skill to make two attacks vs. one opponent each round (but still restricting in terms of parry limitations - ie can only parry the one amount for each weapon)?

My kinda way of thinking is TWC allows you to do "additional things" with the skill - ie not have the -20 to the off hand and be able to fight and parry more than one foe at a time.
Whereas you can develop two separate skills, one in each hand, but still suffice -20 for the off hand (assuming not ambidextrous) and can only fight one foe.

Basically do you need TWC to make two attacks or not or can you still train separately in each hand and be more limited in what you can do according to your rules?

Speaking generically to make two attacks in a round at a full 100% without being Hasted, Sped, etc. you need TWC (this is pretty much the rule in RMSS).  You can technically make two attacks in one round if you have the activity for it (120% minimum for two attacks since they are 60-100% actions).  So, if you are hasted, adrenal sped, etc you could make two attacks with even just one weapon if you wanted.  But to attack twice at the full amount you are allowed you need TWC.  If you're Hasted, Sped, etc. then you can actually make four attacks if you are a TWC user (cause you get two attacks per attack action and you can make two attack actions at 100% when Hasted, Sped, etc).

Now, I do have some specialization skills that can allow a character to make a second attack, but that's entirely a house-rule/custom system (which is what I use Exhaustion Points for).  Think of them like spell lists for a Pure Arms User with Exhaustion Points being the Power Points.  It's one of the ways in which I make it worth continuing to develop your weapon skills past diminishing returns.  I won't get into the actual list of action you can gain, but essentially you have a skill in a weapon fighting style that has a list of actions.  Your OB cannot exceed the weapon fighting style skill total and you gain access to the actions as you develop the relevant weapon skill.  To use the action you make a skill check against the weapon fighting style skill and pay a certain amount of Exhaustion Points.  So the available action are driven by your weapon skill ranks, to use (most of) those actions you need to make a check against the weapon fighting style, and your OB while fighting in your style cannot exceed your weapon fighting style skill total.

So, this means a TWC user (without Ambidexterity) must develop two weapon skills (even if it's the same weapon), the TWC skill and if they want to specialize, the relevant Weapon Fighting Style skill but still have a -20 off your attack (without Ambidexterity) using the lowest of all those skill totals.  It sounds like a lot, but for a Pure Arms User it's not bad and it does help balance against other professions.  Part of the reason for this (all the skills being needed) is because I've actually played a TWC using Fighter that was good at Adrenal Speed... he was a walking blender.

[NanoEther]

Forgot to address % activity and haste

Under my system, percentage activity means that you are attacking during that round and get your full OB to split up as you need towards targets or to absorb modifiers.

When Hasting while engaging multiple targets, I would just halve the negatives. This represents your character being able afford more attention towards each of the targets. If the targets are also Hasted there is no reduction. If some of the targets are Hasted, the Hasted targets modifiers are not altered while the unHasted are halved.

[Athelstaine]

In my game, i have totally done away with % action and use the 3.5 d20 combat round. I just use Two Weapon Combat as a catch all for all dual weilding with a cap of 80% of OB that can be used to make attacks and parry with. If the player has ambidexterity he can can go full OB/Parry with no restrictions. For clarification i do not make people skill up multiple TWC for different weapons, just the single time.