Topic: SM: Privateers VM Construction & Design: Hard and Strong Points & Armor Belt

[snrdg051306]

Hello Every one,

First, I want to thank Mark D. Carlson, aka MarkC, for answering my Jet Drive question and my PM, he offered so I took him up on asking off the forum ;-), with these new questions. Mark also suggested posting the topic, which I’ve modified a little from what I sent in the PM.

Before I ask my questions here is the background information concerning my understanding of the relationship between hard points, strong points, armaments, and payload pallets that came up while stepping through the design example.

Background material
A. Select Hard and Strong Points (4) p. 98:

1. Hard and Strong Points are two types of structure used to mount external loads:
2. Hard Points can carry any type of external loads but must be used to mount missile launchers, auto cannons, projectile cannons, and payload pallets.
3. Strong Points can only mount laser, blaster, plasma, disruptor, and ion cannons
4. All vehicles’ have a minimum of two valid strong points or a number that is equal to the formula: Vehicle Mass ÷ 100.
5. The first two strong points do not add to the vehicle’s volume, mass, or cost.
6. Adding hard and/or strong points after construction increases the cost by including the Hull Material Cost Multiplier in the calculation.
7. The Hard and Strong point example on p. 98 states that Gary is satisfied with the two existing strong points.

B. Armaments Example p. 109

1. Two Blaster Cannons are mounted, apparently but not stated in the example, on one of the two strong points

C. Payload Pallet Example p. 110

1. A single payload pallet is installed to launch a Mark 10 torpedo.

Question 1: Can the two free mounting points be split between strong and hard points?

MarkC answered: “No the text says you get two free strong points only.”

Question 2: To calculate any additional strong point over the first two and any hard points you multiply the cost, volume, and mass by the number added, right?

MarkC answered: “Yes for every additional strong point you add you have to pay for using $, mass, and the volume information found in the chart on page 98.”

Question 3: Did I understand the Hard and Strong Point text correctly about what they are designed to carry?

MarkC answered: “Yes your understanding is correct in that strong points can mount energy weapons and hard points can mount ‘any’ type of weapon system.”

Question 4: Did I understand that the Blaster Cannons where mounted on the existing strong points? From my initial understanding of the text on p. 109 the compact blaster cannons used both strong points or are in a fixed double mound using a single strong point.

MarkC answered: “I cannot tell as the text is a little vague on this point.”

After going through the example after Mark’s help I strongly believe that the blaster cannons are carried in a double fixed mount attached to a single strong point. This leaves a strong point available to mount other energy weapons.

Question 5: Did I miss that a hard point was added to carry the torpedo payload pallet per the example on p. 110?

MarkC answered: “No this is a mistake in the book and the addition of a hard point should be added to the example on page 98.”

Armor Belt p. 99 - 100
Background:
1. The Armor Mass formula on p. 99 is (Hull Volume) x (Hits %).
2. The example on p. 100 states, “The hits are 105 (105% of 100)”. The example’s formula appears to be (Hull Mass) x (Hits %)

Which is the correct the correct formula?

MarkC answered: “You are correct that the volume formula should be changed to mass and that the formula should be corrected to read Armor Belt Mass = (Hull Mass) x (Hits %).”

[markc]

I think the new mass formula should be mass=(hull mass)x(hits%^-4)
MDC

[markc]

 I also could be wrong on the armor belt mass equation though. I also think that after adding the armor belt you should use that number as your new mass.
 I also tried to look at some of the examples in the book to see if they went back and added the armor belt mass to the starting projected mass and could not really see if they did or did not. But what is important IMHO is having a standard way to create ships and V's moving forward in SM:P.
MDC

[snrdg051306]

Howdy MarkC,

Sorry about missing the suggested formula, this window gets kind of funny when I'm entering text longer that goes past the bottom of the viewing/typing area. Other than missing the formula how did I do?

I think the new mass formula should be mass=(hull mass)x(hits%^-4)
MDC

[snrdg051306]

I also could be wrong on the armor belt mass equation though. I also think that after adding the armor belt you should use that number as your new mass.
 I also tried to look at some of the examples in the book to see if they went back and added the armor belt mass to the starting projected mass and could not really see if they did or did not. But what is important IMHO is having a standard way to create ships and V's moving forward in SM:P.
MDC

Thank you again MarkC for the help and further comments on this topic.

I've checked on how the armor belt handled in both my Star Strike (1st U.S. ed. 11/98) and Armored Assault (1st U.S. ed, 1989) books and found that SM: Privateers ignored the issue of mass.

I'm not positive but the Example on p. 107 appears to have added the armor mass into the calculations as part of the total hull mass.

[markc]

You did great and it is a lot of help as my copy is full of notes and scribbles.
MDC

[snrdg051306]

Morning everyone,

I'm blaming web gremlins for the hash made of my original comment, inside the quote, and the corrections following outside and below.

Thank you again MarkC for the help and further comments on this topic.

I've checked on how the armor belt handled in both my Star Strike (1st U.S. ed. 11/98) and Armored Assault (1st U.S. ed, 1989) books and found that SM: Privateers ignored the issue of mass.

I'm not positive but the Example on p. 107 appears to have added the armor mass into the calculations as part of the total hull mass.

I've checked on how the armor belt handled in both my Star Strike (1st U.S. ed. 11/98) and Armored Assault (1st U.S. ed, 1989) books and found that the earlier sequences ignored the issue of mass.

[snrdg051306]

I just noticed I miss typed the third digit in the copyright date for Star Strike, the correct data is 1st U.S. Edition 11/88, vice 1st U.S. Edition 11/98.  Since I'm acknowledging this little error I'll have to claim the original changes and not blame web gremlins.;-)

[markc]

 Yes in SM2 SS and AA they did not use mass at all, they just used volume.


MDC

[snrdg051306]

Yes in SM2 SS and AA they did not use mass at all, they just used volume.

I checked again and I can only see a formula that calculates armor belt cost per SM2 SS p. 53 and AA p. 91.

Armor Belt Volume = 0
Armor Belt Cost = [c4] = [m1] x Cost Multiplier

My understanding from the text or a real world warship's, say a battleship, adding hull armor does not effect volume inside the hull, people and equipment spaces. However, in the real world adding the armor belt did increase the overall displacement of the ship.

Thanks again MarkC for the reply.

[Skaran]

Just to clarify, payload pallets carrying torpedoes need hardpoints? Do payload pallets carrying anything else also need hardpoints?

[snrdg051306]

Hello Skaran,

From SM: P VM Select Hard & Strong Points (4) p. 98 the last sentence of the first paragraph states:

"Hard points are necessary to mount a missile launcher, auto/projectile cannon, or payload pallet."

Being a very literal person I going with the understanding that mounting any payload pallet requires a hard point be installed.

Just to clarify, payload pallets carrying torpedoes need hard points?

Referencing the quoted sentence above I'd say yes that the torpedo payload pallet installed by the design example requires a hard point.

Do payload pallets carrying anything else also need hard points?

Yes, any payload pallet carried item requires that a hard point be installed.

However, my experience and by reminders from other forum members in other game systems the core rules can be and usually are modified to fit into YSMU with the agreement of the GM and the other players.

This brings up a new question for me which I'll start as a new topic titled:
SM: Privateers VM Construction & Design: Hard and Strong Points

[Skaran]

My next question...
I have a medium payload pallet fitted carrying in this example a TL20 Mk21 Torpedo massing 0.75 tons. Can the same pallet take instead 3 Mk7s or 1 Mk14 and 1 Mk7 which would have the same total mass/volume as the single Mk21?

[markc]

  There are rules in SM2 Starship books ( I forget the names of them right now) about adapters for payload pallets. I do not remember the exact rules but the short answer is yes and I think it adds some weight for each additional weapon on the pallet. Maybe like + 1% to 5% but I could be wrong.
 I also seem to remember for some reason that the load should be balanced so if you have a MK14 and 7 on one side you should have the same on the other.


Do you have those SM2 books? 
MDC

[snrdg051306]

Evening Skaran and MarkC,

Star Strike Vessel Compendium #3 2.0 Optional Rules page 7 covers Payload Pallet Adapters

Payload Pallet Adapters allow a single Payload Pallet to carry more than one load. The only limitation is that, with the adapter, all payloads loaded onto the Pallet must be identical.

For example, a Mk. 90 Payload Pallet outfitted with a Mk. 19 adapter can be loaded with 9 x Mk. 10 mines, 9 x Mk. 10 Torpedoes, or any other 9 x Mk. 10 Payload.

To calculate the cost of a Payload Pallet Adapter, multiply (the Mk. # of the Payload Pallet) x (the Mk. # of the loads carried on the adapter). The Payload Pallet Adapter mentioned above costs 900 El (90 x 10).

All loads carried on a Payload Adapter need not be released at the same time.

[markc]

 You can also see that there is no extra weight given for the adapter. IMHO it should have some weight associated with it, even if it is small.


 Note also in one of the data nets IIRC there are rules for torpedo launchers and maybe another weapon.
MDC

[snrdg051306]

I've checked out all eight DataNet issues without seeing anything about a torpedo launcher. However, DataNet 7 does introduce a man portable SAM, grenade launcher, and an anti-personnel missile launcher.

To be honest a torpedo is just a missile designed to operate in a liquid medium instead of air. A missile can either be launched from a rail, box, or tube. When a submarine uses a torpedo the device is launched from a tube. Surface combatants started out carrying missiles in tube launchers and can now use a missile launching system to put a torpedo a even farther ranges. Fixed and rotary-wing aircraft can carry torpedoes on a special rail system called a bomb rack.

On SM2 SS pp. 16 - 19 are the details about missiles and torpedoes.

Missiles, SM2 SS p. 16, are small, short range, and very fast moving warhead delivery systems with only a limited internal guidance system. These systems are limited to warheads from Mk. 6 to Mk. 10. Missile attacks are resolved in the same Round in which they are fired.

Torpedoes, SM2 SS p. 16, are on the other hand, slower moving warhead delivery systems with longer range; they are capable of tracking a target independently and following for some time. Torpedoes also have internal EW generators and are available in warheads from Mk. 6 to Mk. 50 inclusive. Here are two other parameters discussed on p. 18: To be fired, a Torpedo must be mounted on a Payload Pallet with a MK # at least as large as the Torpedoes MK #. Each Payload Pallet may mount only one Torpedo. All torpedoes may chase their targets for 1 hour (360 Rounds).

SM2 AA pp. 41 - 45 the details for missiles and torpedoes are basically the same wording as in SM2 SS.

I've somehow missed how SM: P defines the two systems and when I do I'll post any differences.

Until I find the rules that detail a torpedo launcher, which being a retired submarine sailor I'm calling them tubes, I'll use the missile launcher rules to construct tubes. However, I also include the SM2 torpedo restrictions.

[Skaran]

I do have Star Strike and the 3 compendiums, should have looked in them..duh. I have some of the data nets (1-5) too. Havn't looked at them for a long time.

Personally I think that anything which has a volume should have mass if it doesn't it has a density of 0 and is therefore a perfect vacuum.

The torpedo description seems closer to sea going types rather than the general purpose (TL20+) ones carried by spacecraft.

Incidently in real life torpedoes could be carried externally on grapples by aircraft. Missiles in TNE/FF&S can also be carried this way. Perhaps I'll just port grapple rules in from this system.

[snrdg051306]

Just a quick note, I checked out the Topic: 4513 Tech Law: Vehicle Manual Errata and see that there has been a change to the formula for calculating which is

Re: 4513 Tech Law: Vehicle Manual Errata
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 06:11:25 pm »
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[pg 99], Armor Belt Mass should be divided by 100 in the equation.

So the equation appears to be

Armor Belt Mass = (Hull Mass) ÷ 100  unless I'm still very confused;-)

I think the new mass formula should be mass=(hull mass)x(hits%^-4)
MDC

[snrdg051306]

Hey Skaran,

I guess I should have gone into a little more detail about the SM2 AA torpedo. The difference is that an AA torpedo can move over surface terrain (Aeroborne) and through a liquid body (Hydrographic) (p. 44).

SM2 SS doesn't mention anything about movement over surface terrain or through a liquid body that I could find anyway.

Yep, both space and water are essentially the same when launching a torpedo since both a relatively empty of obstructions that affect the attack on a target. A sea going torpedo is propelled through a liquid medium, while a space going torpedo is propelled through vacuum.

I just noticed another error in my typing here is the corrected text:

For example, a Mk. 90 Payload Pallet outfitted with a Mk. 10 adapter can be loaded with 9 x Mk. 10 mines, 9 x Mk. 10 Torpedoes, or any other 9 x Mk. 10 Payload.