Topic: Two Weapon Fighting?

[Melkor]

Hi folks, I might just be missing it, but can are there rules for two weapon fighting in RMC?

Thanks.

[Onirim]

The rule is in the Arms Law, page 19,
"Two one-handed weapons"

The concept is to develop one skill for right hand, and one skill for left hand. Left handed weapon take a -20 malus.
The character can make two attack rolls, one with each weapon.
And finally, when parrying, the DB is gained once (not twice), but the OB of the two weapons decrease.

The others rules are in the page 19

[Melkor]

Thanks Onirim. That is exactly what I was looking for!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

There are actually 2 different sets of rules for Two Weapon Combo in RMC.

The first is found in RMC Arms Law, on page 19 under the heading "Two One-Handed Weapons". This method requires learning 2 skills, each weapon's OB based on the skill for that weapon, but both attacks must be against the same foe, and any parrying applies against both OBs fully (i.e. moving 50 from OB to DB subtracts 50 from both weapon skills).

The second can be found in the Combat Companion, and is one of the Combat Styles found in that book.

[Jos]

Hi fellow RM'ers.

I would like some quick clarification on this subject please:

If a two-weapon wielder goes full-parry with both weapons,
do they get their OB added to DB twice, or only once?
If only once, this effectively means this type of build has
only one weapon for parry purposes.  Is this correct?

Thanks

[yammahoper]

If a twc user goes total defensive, you can allow then to parry two seperate foes.  If even one foe has a positional mod against the parry, I assign double the positional mod as a penalty to parrying BOTH foes.  Considering that this happens most often after the TWC user is stunned and only has half his OB to parry with, its a big deal.

If the twc user does total parry against one attacker, you may want to give hin the weapon as shield bonus twice (i.e. +5 and +5 for a bonus DB of +10).

[markc]

TWC lets you roll the d100 twice per combat round it does not man that you essentially have 2 rounds on action or double OB.
 So yes you only get 1 full OB plus 5 DB for going full defense.
 The rule Yamma gave above is a house rule and not in the books, IIRC.
 
MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Personally, I always thought the way TWC was managed to be an aberration to the Rolemaster system. Several attacks? Why so, when an attack in RM is already a succession of attacks! We also have the Martial Arts attacks that are just that, a succession of several attacks and are solved with only one attack roll.
For my part, I solve the TWC with one unique attack roll, with DB, OB and critical advantages, the way a weapon kata martial artist is solved (I can post details if you're interested).

[markc]

Personally, I always thought the way TWC was managed to be an aberration to the Rolemaster system. Several attacks? Why so, when an attack in RM is already a succession of attacks! We also have the Martial Arts attacks that are just that, a succession of several attacks and are solved with only one attack roll.
For my part, I solve the TWC with one unique attack roll, with DB, OB and critical advantages, the way a weapon kata martial artist is solved (I can post details if you're interested).

 Post it in the vault so people can use it and learn from your experience.
MDC

[Jos]

Hmmm.  Ok, thanks folks.  I have searched for other topics
on two-weapon fighting and it's quite clear that RMSS says
that, effectively, parrying is horribly inefficient when dual-
wielding.  Effectively - one weapon of the two can only be
used to attack.

This will upset some of my PC's! Oh well.

But yes - i am interested to hear alternatives for TWC from
anyone who has constructed their own house rules.
What is 'The Vault' mentioned above?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

What is 'The Vault' mentioned above?

I don't really know myself so here are my TWC house rules.

1. Cost.
   Simply add the cost of each weapon used in the combination.
   Example: a fighter has a cost of 2/7 in 1-handed edged and 3/8 in 1-handed concussion. His cost to develop a broadsword/short sword TWC would be 4/14 while it'd be 5/15 for a broadsword/mace combo and 6/16 for a mace/warhammer combo.

   Don't allow TWC for single cost weapons.
   Example: another fighter has a cost of 2/7 in 1-handed edged and 9 in 1-handed concussion. He cannot develop any TWC based on a 1-handed concussion weapon.

   Option: for single cost weapons, just add the first figure.
   Example: the above fighter would be able to develop a broadsword/mace combo at a cost of 11, and a mace/warhammer combo at a cost of 18.

2. Skill ranks:
   One cannot develop more TWC skill ranks than the lowest of his skill ranks in the weapons involved in the TWC.

3. Benefits:
 * +5 to DB,
 * Choice of the weapon table,
 * Additional critical of the same severity of the type of the other weapon.
   Example: a fighter has a broadsword/mace TWC and does a OB-DB of +133 against an AT17. It gives 12CS on the broadsword table and 16DK on the mace table. The fighter chooses to inflict 16DK and gains an additional DS critical.

   Option: instead of allowing the character to "play" with two tables the whole time, make him choose one primary attack table and an additional critical type based on the other weapon involved in the TWC.
   Example: a GM decides it to be too bothersome to "juggle" with two tables so he chooses this option. In the above case, the character decides to then always attack on the mace table, with an additional Slash critical of the same severity.

4. Notice that only ONE attack roll is made, with the OB of the TWC skill.

5. Additional benefits: as a fighter advances in his TWC, he gains additional benefits.

OB	# ranks	Benefits
+120	15	The DB bonus increases to +10
+140	20	The fighter gains a +10 to his TWC OB
+150	25	The DB bonus increases to +15
+165	30	The OB bonus increases to +20

   Note: the OB column is the minimal "pure" OB, meaning the OB with the skill ranks, stat bonus and level bonus added only (i.e. without any bonus due to spells or items).

6. Item bonus: if only one weapon has a bonus to hit, or each weapon has a different bonus, only the average bonus is added to the TWC skill.

[markc]

  The Vault is the download section of the website. In the old days (2003 or so IIRC) you submitted your fan stuff and they looked it over and posted it for others to download. Now it is more automated than in the past.
  So to make a long story short, it is the old name for the Download section.


MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Blah. Posting it here is good enough, IMO, as it's topic-related and was asked.

[providence13]

Effectively - one weapon of the two can only be
used to attack.

Huh? really? I must have read it wrong..

No, I read it again. IIUC (If I Understand Correctly) :
1. Both weapons are used to attack. 2 rolls.
2. Both weapons use the TWC skill ranks (for that combo) to establish the OB of each weapon. Ranks in TWC skill can't be higher than the LOWER of each individual weapons Ranks.
3. Any OB/DB split applies to both weapons exactly the same.

I don't think that you can use one weapon totally for defense at all. That is called a shield.
I could, of course, be totally in error.  If so, someone will point it out, I'm sure

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I suspect that there are about as many different explanations, presumptions and house rules about Two Weapon fighting as there are games being run...

I would rather there simply not be a TWC skill at all. Since the rules already assume that the combat round is actually a flurry of activity with multiple attacks resulting in a SINGLE attack roll to solve the problem of TWC you will need an abstract answer.

Now, lets assume that regardless of what the combatant has in either hand, to use them both actively they MUST have a skill in using that item and that will be modified by what they are attempting to do with it and modify their skill with any other item being used by the other hand.

Thus with this, any OB/DB split will naturally be a combination of attacks and defenses made by either weapon, this would necessitate the OB's of both weapons being added together then halved to produce an Average total OB for the round. Use of the off-hand means that a penalty is applied to the OB of the off-hand weapon only before being added into the total, in addition there should be a cumulative penalty applied for multi-targetting for every target over the first.

Naturally this poses the question as to why attempt it if there is no benifit to be gained?

IMHO Since the single attack roll is from a combination of attacks then there is no reason why multiple combatants cannot also be affected by this one single attack roll. Thus any Offensive OB should be divided between all the targets that the attacker wishes to include and one attack roll applies for the attacks, rather than making multiple attack rolls.

If this is done then when attacking with two weapons, simply allow a second target to be excluded when dividing OB by the number of opponents.
 (e.g. The attacker does not divide it's ob but does suffer the penalty for attacking an additional opponent)

If only one opponent is attacked then the parry of that opponents should also be divided by two.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I would rather there simply not be a TWC skill at all.

The problem with not having a TWC skill but using directly the weapon skills is that it assumes one is "automatically" proficient in using two weapons as soon as he's proficient in the individual use of each...

[providence13]

@ Grinnen,

That ain't bad at all.
Averaging would not be popular, but might have a precedence set with averaging missile weapons and ammo. Kinda, sorta, maybe..

Also, it might make sense, realistically to halve opponent's parry. Hmmm.
But in general, favor goes to the defender, as seen by DB applying to all attacks from that opponent for the whole round.
Not sure.
You might be onto something though.

[markc]

I would say it was more based on the lower of the two stats than the higher.
MDC

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I would rather there simply not be a TWC skill at all.

The problem with not having a TWC skill but using directly the weapon skills is that it assumes one is "automatically" proficient in using two weapons as soon as he's proficient in the individual use of each...

I agree, but.. from a playability point of view it's a moot point.

Rolemaster already has rules for using a weapon in the "off-hand" (-20 IIRC) and also uses an abstract based on any number of possible attacks made during a round covered by a single attack roll. So to learn a skill with a weapon used in the off-hand should not incur any extra penalty to use over the penalty in play. Therefore the ability to hold/use a weapon in both should not incur greater penalties above and beyond the benifits gained.

It's what the weilder attempts that should be ruled upon not how it is learnt that needs to be reviewed. The current skill-purchasing rules seem to unfairly penalise two-weapon users AND are possibly the most misunderstood/abused rules in the game.

Much better I feel to simplify the application and abstract the results of those eventualities.

What we should be attempting is to achieve an easily understood and balanced combat system that defines the advantages and disadvantages of using two-weapons, as opposed to a single weapon or a shield/weapon combo. 

Unfortunately, with the exception of martial arts (and the use of associated kata) IIRC there doesn't seem to be a way to attack more than once per round or more than one opponent regardless of the weapon/s used... yet the abstract combat round assumes that mulitple attacks ARE made, but only ONE is significant so only one attack roll is made. This is GOOD for playability so should be kept.

However, I see no real reason why a set penalty can't be incurred for engaging more that one foe and the OB cannot be split EVENLY between them AND use the same attack roll. This should apply to ANY weapon combat not just TWC.

Penalties should be levied based upon the number of opponents attacked... lets say -20 per opponent over the first, and that this is applicable to the one single attack (so the penalty applies evenly to all the targets). The attack roll is then made and the results modified seperately per opponent (because each may have different AT, DB* and parry allocations). Then applied with Crit results being individually determined for those targets that are hit.

(Suggested advantage to two weapon users: The first additional opponent is ignored for purposes of penalty applied...or if only attacking one foe that opponents parry is reduced in effectiveness by half.
(Suggested disadvantage for two weapon users: The weapon table used is randomly determined from the two weapons used. Any crit caused by a weapon in  the offhand is reduced by one level.)

*I'd personally take the opportunity here to remove the Reverse Strike Skill here as well , by simply applying a bonus to the defenders DB based upon the positional modifier... e.g +15 to the targets DB if in the attackers flank.

[yammahoper]

A good optional rule from arms companion was was two attacks can be performed in a round without haste, butare at -60 each.