Author Topic: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]  (Read 4714 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2023, 01:57:03 PM »
Maybe we need to define a 'zine'.

I'm thinking of The Guild Companion which was essentially unofficial.
You seem to be thinking of something officially published by ICE.

The Annual's were written by staff, while the Quarterly ones were written by freelance authors for ICE, then published by ICE.
To put it briefly, The Quarterly didn't last long because that incarnation of ICE (previous to the current one) was near it's end and it's highly likely they didn't pay the freelances that wrote them.

The Guild Companion was more 'fan' content driven.
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Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2023, 02:37:43 PM »
Maybe we need to define a 'zine'.

Call it a magazine or a zine, it don't really matter beyond semantics.

It will unlikely sell more than 1,000.

Real magazines are pretty much over or nearing their end. But a print on demand feature might satisfy those wanting physical copies.

Collins Dictionary Zine (Journalism & Publishing) informal a magazine or fanzine

ICE currently appears in the independent publishers section on DriveThruRPG.

I am using this definition of zine as 1) a small-batch, independently published work that circulates less than 1,000 copies, in practice many zines are produced in editions of fewer than 100, and 2) Zines are the product of either a single person or of a very small group.

I don't believe that an ICE PDF issues could sell much more than 100 to 500—breaking 100 would be unexpected to me—but it's possible.

They could even test out material for Rolemaster Unified 2nd edition for publication if that is the next version that will evolve in 5 years—or whatever the next will be called.

Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2023, 02:59:11 PM »
I don't believe that an ICE PDF issues could sell much more than 100 to 500—breaking 100 would be unexpected to me—but it's possible.

Quote above should read 1,000 where i crossed it out.

Fanzines are also zines.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2023, 05:12:25 PM »
Maybe we need to define a 'zine'.

Call it a magazine or a zine, it don't really matter beyond semantics.
I'm referring to the difference between material published by ICE vs an online zine, which tend to be largely fan driven.
- Cory Magel

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Offline jdale

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2023, 12:40:22 AM »
RMFRP really is the same ruleset as RMSS, so I don't think it makes sense to consider them separately for purposes of product lifetime.

If human resources were not an issue, it would certainly be nice to have a middle ground for publishing in between the Vault and completed books. There are lots of little ideas that deserve more attention but haven't grown into full products. Having something like the Guild Companion was a good place for them, as an incubator for writers at the very least. I don't know who would do the work though.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2023, 01:01:25 AM »
How about a patron like setup where you sign up for a subscription and the number of subscribers decide how regularly the new Guild Companion will make new issues?
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Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2023, 01:54:02 PM »
At least there are some votes and comments discussing a magazine, ezine, PDF zine, fanzine, annual, quarterly, or zine—or whatever one would call such a thing.

Thanks, all for those who voted or joined in the conversation either before or after this post.  Thanks, for all those for or against such a thing.

The rest is up to the powers that be to think about or ignore.

Feel free to add anything else or vote if you haven't.

Offline B Hanson

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2023, 07:04:39 PM »
I guess I wanted to weigh in one more time. For the last 6-8 years we've been posting blogs (mine total 388), adventures (50 in 50), fanzines (48+) and other supplements (see my list) for Rolemaster and Shadow World. We did that to continue content for these properties, as a creative outlet and for our passion for the system, but throughout we also asked for some sort of acknowledgement, licensing, open source, or official recognition. Had we received that, much of our material wouldn't have been stripped of clear IP conflict, or would have been MORE "ICE" rather than d100, whether it's random, weekly, monthly or quarterly.

I'll put it out there again. I've written a lot of SW material and I'm happy to be brought into the fold as an official contributor. My brother and I are able to step up to handle SW products. We have a team at Rolemasterblog that, if officially recognized, could source, create, and produce a steady stream of product via DrivethruRPG.

With all that said, I would reiterate. We've asked for contributions to the Rolemasterblog, ICE has asked for submissions and you've raised the issue about an official "zine". For the most part, the answer is silence. In my business, we say "buyers make offers" and in this situation I would say "writers submit material".

There are a few of us that generate material and we are more than happy to continue unofficially or to be recognized and brought into the fold.

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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2023, 08:16:09 PM »
I think there will be renewed interest in writing material now that there is a current Rolemaster line to write for.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2023, 11:02:15 PM »
I think there will be renewed interest in writing material now that there is a current Rolemaster line to write for.
I would also say that, once the initial core stuff is out and the ICE staff aren't neck deep in getting that done, this could be a more useful discussion.
I would also say that, unlike the last incarnation of ICE, I'd trust the current one to actually pay people what they say they will.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

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Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2023, 09:24:13 AM »
...For the last 6-8 years we've been posting... we also asked for some sort of acknowledgement, licensing, open source, or official recognition. Had we received that, much of our material ... d100, whether it's random, weekly, monthly or quarterly.

...I'll put it out there again. I've written a lot of SW material and I'm happy to be brought into the fold as an official contributor...

You've raised the issue about an official "zine". For the most part, the answer is silence. In my business, we say "buyers make offers" and in this situation I would say "writers submit material".

I'll buy SW stuff you make for RMU, if it's official—not clone stuff. ICE deserves a portion of official material, even deals they make for freelance material. And writers deserve their portion.

Respectfully, in regards to RM stuff, I'm following the IP—not so much writers, ex-writers, or freelance writers. Want full support, then 'submit' an 'offer' to buy the IP. Then follow through.

I look forward to a renewed interest in publishing official RMU material.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2023, 09:06:55 PM »
I'll buy SW stuff you make for RMU, if it's official—not clone stuff. ICE deserves a portion of official material, even deals they make for freelance material. And writers deserve their portion.
Respectfully, in regards to RM stuff, I'm following the IP—not so much writers, ex-writers, or freelance writers. Want full support, then 'submit' an 'offer' to buy the IP. Then follow through.
I look forward to a renewed interest in publishing official RMU material.
You're losing out on a good amount content with that stance. There are a good number of ex-writers/freelancers and long time forum members that put out quality material.
Heck, the current ICE is made up for exactly those people.  They just happen to be 'official' now.
- Cory Magel

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"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2023, 09:27:57 AM »
You're losing out on a good amount content with that stance. There are a good number of ex-writers/freelancers and long time forum members that put out quality material.
Heck, the current ICE is made up for exactly those people.  They just happen to be 'official' now.

Yes, some ex-writers/freelancers put out quality material, but quality work doesn't necessarily build the RM core system up.

Monte Cook puts out quality content. His new stuff is very distant from his ICE content.
Fenlon and Charlton put out quality content after ICE. Catan has nothing to do with RM.

I'll buy stuff for RM by writers if it's official—not stuff that goes off in a different direction—and doesn't add value to the core IP.

And especially not something that goes off following or building clone games—that is one thing that is all too common that I am tired of seeing. I am a fan of a former ICE official system derived from RM that no longer exists due to license expiration. Former or opportunistic writers looking to capitalize unofficially on that void don't interest me. I'd rather see "RMU lite" replace the void officially.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2023, 02:15:40 PM »
You're losing out on a good amount content with that stance. There are a good number of ex-writers/freelancers and long time forum members that put out quality material.
Heck, the current ICE is made up for exactly those people.  They just happen to be 'official' now.
Monte Cook puts out quality content. His new stuff is very distant from his ICE content.  Fenlon and Charlton put out quality content after ICE. Catan has nothing to do with RM.
I'll buy stuff for RM by writers if it's official—not stuff that goes off in a different direction—and doesn't add value to the core IP.
I don't really get most of what you're saying here.  Why would you be looking at Monte Cook or the others?  They don't create RM based material anymore.

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Former or opportunistic writers looking to capitalize unofficially on that void don't interest me. I'd rather see "RMU lite" replace the void officially.
lol... opportunistic? I wonder if you mean something else by that. What are they 'capitalizing' on? I don't think anyone, even ICE themselves, is going to remotely make a substantial profit off any of this.

If ICE isn't producing enough content for you because they don't have time, and other 'unofficial' people start putting out good material for RMU (not 'some other' system) I really don't get just ignoring that stuff if it might actually benefit your games. Earlier the 'Guild Companion' was discussed. Based on your current comments you wouldn't have been using it for RMSS/RMFRP because it wasn't official.
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"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2023, 03:57:57 PM »
I don't really get most of what you're saying here.  Why would you be looking at Monte Cook or the others?  They don't create RM based material anymore.

Exactly. I'm not following the ex-writers/freelancers—I'm following the IP.

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If ICE isn't producing enough content for you because they don't have time, and other 'unofficial' people start putting out good material for RMU (not 'some other' system) I really don't get just ignoring that stuff if it might actually benefit your games.

ICE is publishing enough RMU core books. Two books in 4 months. Roughly 1 per quarter. If they keep at that rate, then hopefully in 5 years, twenty books might be available, plus some smaller supplemental material.

If, for example, someone were to independently produce an Unofficial RMU Godly and Demonic Magic and Mayhem Spellbook, I will not be buying it.

For me, the life of the game, I believe, is roughly 5 years from December 2, 2022 based on the prior two versions for the main game material. I can wait 5 years for something.

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Earlier the 'Guild Companion' was discussed. Based on your current comments you wouldn't have been using it for RMSS/RMFRP because it wasn't official.

Why use that RM example for a MERP GM? There is an even better timely and relevant example.

Looking up the names of the MERP fanzines...

Even better and more relatable to me, no, I did not and do not use Other Hands Magazine, the unofficial MERP magazine from that time period or the Other Minds Magazine the zine that followed. I did come to know of their existence at some point.

There are a host of several MERP clones that I have heard of as well that I do not use as well.

I'm sure their is great writers who wrote unofficial material in those unofficial zines and games. They take GMs in a direction other than the official stuff. That material isn't something for me.

I did buy several issues of the official ICE magazines that had MERP material mixed with RM material in the 80s. One of them had the expanded classes for MERP.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2023, 06:26:20 PM »
Exactly. I'm not following the ex-writers/freelancers—I'm following the IP.
I guess if you want to limit your options and ignore good material, that's your choice. It just seems like a fairly arbitrary one.

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ICE is publishing enough RMU core books. Two books in 4 months. Roughly 1 per quarter. If they keep at that rate, then hopefully in 5 years, twenty books might be available, plus some smaller supplemental material.
The current ICE? These books took years to create. You're in for some profound disappointment if you think the current ICE is going to be cranking out one book per quarter. The days of having multiple full time employees are over for ICE and along with that anything near the release schedule of the past. Ironically, if they are not, it will be because of the exact people whose material you say you don't want to use.

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I can wait 5 years for something.
Considering your other posts on these forums, I find this hard to believe.  ;)

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Earlier the 'Guild Companion' was discussed. Based on your current comments you wouldn't have been using it for RMSS/RMFRP because it wasn't official.
Why use that RM example for a MERP GM? There is an even better timely and relevant example.
More timely? How so? MERP stopped being published 30 years ago and Other Hands more than 20 years ago. Other Minds, which is not geared towards ICE material as much as Other Hands, last had an issue around 5 years go I think? The Guild Companion was last published around 4 years ago.
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Offline kwickham

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2023, 09:10:08 PM »
The current ICE? These books took years to create. You're in for some profound disappointment if you think the current ICE is going to be cranking out one book per quarter. The days of having multiple full time employees are over for ICE and along with that anything near the release schedule of the past. Ironically, if they are not, it will be because of the exact people whose material you say you don't want to use.

1. Core Law = published
2. Spell Law = published
3. Creature Law 1
4. Treasure Law
5. Creature Law 2 (if they are still publishing the creature creation material separate)
6. The companion book that jdale mentioned that is written.

That may be 6 already written possibly. That would be a quarter or a third of the way to 20

How many companion books are written and ready to be published right now?
If they were "ready to be published" they would be published. But, written? The answer is one.

If your companion book is near ready, then add that one—unless it's the one jdale mentioned.

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Quote
Why use that RM example for a MERP GM? There is an even better timely and relevant example.
More timely? How so? MERP stopped being published 30 years ago and Other Hands more than 20 years ago. Other Minds, which is not geared towards ICE material as much as Other Hands, last had an issue around 5 years go I think? The Guild Companion was last published around 4 years ago.

My MERP GMing was from the mid 80s to the mid 90s. I heard about Other Hands during the 90s when I was GMing it and came across the name at some point in college/university. So, I could have used that material, but I didn't. All that is before GC or the later Other Minds.

I did not do any gaming in the 00s until mid 2010s, except for MMORPGs.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2023, 09:59:40 PM »
The current ICE? These books took years to create. You're in for some profound disappointment if you think the current ICE is going to be cranking out one book per quarter. The days of having multiple full time employees are over for ICE and along with that anything near the release schedule of the past. Ironically, if they are not, it will be because of the exact people whose material you say you don't want to use.

1. Core Law = published
2. Spell Law = published
3. Creature Law 1
4. Treasure Law
5. Creature Law 2 (if they are still publishing the creature creation material separate)
6. The companion book that jdale mentioned that is written.

That may be 6 already written possibly. That would be a quarter or a third of the way to 20
Those took more than a decade of development to get to this point. The fact that they are being released close together does not make the process a fast one.
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Offline jdale

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2023, 10:56:54 PM »
The rate they are coming out now is based on the limit of how fast things can go through art and layout based on one person doing layout, bearing in mind that RMU is getting some priority over HARP. In the long term, resources will have to be split between RMU and HARP, but it would be better to have two people doing layout (which we briefly did until Terry passed).

That said, the bigger limiting factor is contributing writers. We can have enough editing and art and layout capacity and still not put out a book because no one wrote it. Expansion material should be faster to write than core material because it's starting from a more solid foundation, but on the other hand it may require generating more new ideas so that's a trade-off too. There are a bunch of people here who I know are quite capable of writing great material, and probably a bunch more people who are quite capable even though I don't know it yet, but it's a big commitment of time and focus and they have to decide to do so.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: That would be cool to have an offical zine again. [Poll]
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2023, 11:47:48 PM »
That said, the bigger limiting factor is contributing writers. We can have enough editing and art and layout capacity and still not put out a book because no one wrote it. Expansion material should be faster to write than core material because it's starting from a more solid foundation, but on the other hand it may require generating more new ideas so that's a trade-off too. There are a bunch of people here who I know are quite capable of writing great material, and probably a bunch more people who are quite capable even though I don't know it yet, but it's a big commitment of time and focus and they have to decide to do so.
At least, in my own opinion, writers will hopefully have less concerns now that the IP is in the hands of people who I believe can be trusted to act ethically and professionally.
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