The Basics All Characters Know (in-game argument)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I still think that we are acting like modern pharmaceuticals companies and concentrating on the symptoms and not the disease. The real issue here is player attitude and interaction. Deal with that, and the rest cures itself.

Bingo! Most of this conversation, as interesting as it has been to watch, is basically moot because it depends upon how the GM decides to rule on how things work in his version of the setting.

The real problem, as has been pointed out, is the issue with the other player. If that cannot somehow be resolved, then this same type of problem is likely to crop up in any game in which he joins.

[RandalThor]

This sort of stuff is why I haven't been having much fun gaming lately, the other gamers and I aren't friends, we are just "gaming acquaintances". In the past, like the first 10-20 years of my gaming life, I gamed with a group where at least half of them were actual friends. (You know the ones, the people you do things other than game with and can have fun.) That kept all the drama to a minimum, because we were all buds, amigos, etc..

But, even without that, people should have a certain level of respect and courtesy for each other. I do not believe in: "earn respect," I believe in: "earn dis-respect" - I will respect and trust you until you prove otherwise. Everyone should start out with a base level of respect for everyone else, one higher than the normal today, I believe.

[Zhaleskra]

But, even without that, people should have a certain level of respect and courtesy for each other. I do not believe in: "earn respect," I believe in: "earn dis-respect" - I will respect and trust you until you prove otherwise. Everyone should start out with a base level of respect for everyone else, one higher than the normal today, I believe.

I kind of like this. Except that I do the "earn levels of respect" bit. Everyone starts with "benefit of the doubt", and if they're in a position of authority respect for their position. "benefit of the doubt" is the easiest one to lose. You lose that, and I no longer respect you even if I respect your position. Very few people have ever made me lose both respect for them as people and respect for their authority.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Very few people have ever made me lose both respect for them as people and respect for their authority.

I could name one person that I feel that way about... but I won't.
And I'm sure you guys can guess who it is...

[Right Wing Wacko]

My players and I kid around with each other a lot... call each other names, belittle each other, and talk smack...
But it is all in fun and nobody takes it personal.
And all my players respect my authority as GM. They may argue their point, and even pout a little, but they never throw fits that end the game. Actually, everybody gives whoever is GMing the benefit of the doubt. Dustin GM's differently than I, and we all realize that.

We are all we got!

[markc]

Very few people have ever made me lose both respect for them as people and respect for their authority.

I could name one person that I feel that way about... but I won't.
And I'm sure you guys can guess who it is...

I call those people a waste of flesh.
MDC

[Right Wing Wacko]

Very few people have ever made me lose both respect for them as people and respect for their authority.

I could name one person that I feel that way about... but I won't.
And I'm sure you guys can guess who it is...

I call those people a waste of flesh.
MDC

Or oxygen thieves...
LOL

[Temujin]

I don't know if this is the case here, but I've encountered some players in the past who, in some situations, who feel attacked in their character concepts and react badly out of game.  Iirc, you mentionned the guy was a pilot, so I assume he invested heavily in piloting skill.  One could very well make a point that if someone is untrained and is capable of making a risky maneuver like engaging the hyperdrive and disengaging it 3s later, that renders the whole idea of actually investing in such skills irrelevant.  Not that I think was your intention.

Similar situations arise occasionally in Rolemaster.  For ex.  When it comes to herbs, we tend to be casual about their use, so long as its either apply/ingest on one end, rather than brew, etc. and the character knows or was explained the technical details of the herbs.  Brewed herbs or rare herbs will require a skill check, but not the common ones if you already know what they are.  If the checks were taken out altogether, I know some animist would be annoyed at investing in its herb skills.

[DavidKlecker]

The basic idea is doing something that can be done regardless of your ranks in a skill. For example, let's say some guy is coming after me with a knife and I'm next to a dead person with a gun. Now I have no ranks in firing a gun, but I know if I pull the trigger it fires. I may not know how to hold it, distribute weight or even aim, but firing the gun one would think should be a no brainer unless you've been hiding under a rock. This doesn't include for example, is the gun jammed? Loaded? Safety on? etc. It just includes picking up a gun a firing it. Details are worked out by the GM. The same thing can be said with my character turning on the hyperdrives. Are they locked out? too many buttons? etc. I only assumed a hyperdrive system worked by turning it on and throwing a switch kinda like if I were to turn on a car and throw the thing in reverse. The idea isn't about actually working the controls in a proper way to get a proper result, the idea was basically randomly throwing a switch to on and then to off with no proper method or thought of safety. I wasn't actually "trying" to work the device, I was just throwing a switch kinda like your kid would throw the key in the ignition turn on the car and crash it into a wall. He was able to drive the car, sure, but he wasn't able to make anything "useful" happen during the time.

This is where I define the skill rank. You might be able to pick up a bow. You might even be able to put an arrow in it and pull back on the string, but to actually fire the bow in a proper way in order to actually hit a target, even if that target is the broad side of a barn, is another thing all together. This guy wasn't really seeing the logic in this, he simply stated you need a rank in order to turn the thing on and throw the switch. Which basically in the end translates, you need a rank to pick up a knife and throw it. If there was more to the action than that, well, that makes the action mute, which is why I defaulted to the GM. This guy for some reason didn't want it to happen at all however he is a Star Wars geek and I think this was the equivalent of telling a Star Trek geek how the transporters work. As someone states, I just stepping into his territory.

[RandalThor]

Monk, the flip side to that (and I am not saying anyone is wrong here, just another way of looking at it) is that certain skills are too complicated to try untrained. Think neurosurgery. If I tried to perform neurosurgery on someone whould my cutting their skull open with a pen-knife and digging out sections of their brain with a spoon, really be called neurosurgery? I don't think so*. In the case of simple skills, like throwing a knife, just about anyone can try them, doesn't mean they are going to succeed... So, in a game with high-technical skills, it is very appropriate to say that some skills cannot even be truly attempted - with any possiblity of success - without training (i.e., skill ranks).


*I think it would be called a George Romero film...

[Cory Magel]

Coming into this late... however...

I think the real question is: Is there a "Safety" feature on the Hyperdrive?  If there is you could argue hitting the "On" button will do nothing without first going through a series of checks/calculations (remember how Han had to plot a course - or whatever - before just throwing the switch so to speak?).  If there is no safety to make sure you don't plow into a planet, sun, whatever.. then it's simply a matter of calculated risk.  Was it more dangerous to jump blindly or stay in the situation you were just in?

[DavidKlecker]

We were attached to a Star Destroyer and boarded. We actually fought back and the GM had me roll for a noise to which I passed and recognized that we were free from the umbilical cord between our ship and the boarding ship. I "ran" to the cockpit right past the pilot and told the GM, my character wants to turn the hyperdrive on and then off after 1 second. I am not calculating anything. I asked him if this was possible. He stated that it was unless the pilot put a lock out on it to which another argument started but ended quickly with the argument, "after the fact doesn't make it happen now". the GM ruled that I could turn the hyperdrives on and off but in doing so we could end up inside a planet, a rock or anything. I had to roll a 1D20 in order to determine where we ended up and the GM stated if it comes up anything about a planet or star the campaign is over. I rolled and got open space. Apparently the odds were 75% chance we would die. but the situation in my character's mind was that we were distracted and the Star Destroyer was probably going to blow us out of the sky so 6 to one half a dozen to the other, we are dead regardless. I asked the GM if my hunch was right and his response was "yes".

As per neurosurgery. My point here is that we all know neurosurgery is hard as nails and we all know not everyone can do it. My point above that was that firing a gun is NOT hard as nails and that almost anyone can fire a gun if the circumstances make firing the gun easy (no safety switch or whathaveyou) My point is not about skills that require ranks to get anywhere, it's about skills where a basic motion can still be accomplished. For example, anyone can drive a car. not anyone can drive a car down a drive way without crashing into a tree, another car, a person, etc. Anyone can throw a knife. Not anyone can throw a knife and hit a target. Anyone can pick up a scalpel and cut into a person's skull. Not anyone can perform neurosurgury. My question to the GM was can I turn this Hyperdrive on, engage it and turn it off like a person would turn on a car, throw it in drive then turn the car off again. Funny thing with the car example is that a person in that situation would find themselves hard pressed in turning off the car since most cars cannot be turned off when the car is in drive.

[RandalThor]

If I hadn't done it to ya already, that is when I would have ran the adventure, Otherspace. It is a really fun one, and best when the PCs can be "blamed" for getting them there. He he.

[DavidKlecker]

^^^ That would have been awesome!!

[ReaperWolf]

Seriously...is there nobody that think he simply might simply have had a bad day?

Oh no. He did not have a bad day. This is VERY typical behavior.

Reminds me of a Champions 2e game I observed but thankfully wasn't playing. One of the regulars decided he didn't like being captured. In point of fact he decided it would never happen again so he decided he'd create a character with a vehicle which he kept out of the game until he was facing defeat/capture. When he went down the craft swept in loaded with a nuke to his exact location. The vehicle detonated killing everything/everyone equivalent to several city blocks. NPC bad guys dead and PC (safely in a donut-like nullification field) alive. Of course the rest of the PCs were dead and a lot of the city was toast but what did he care. He won. Incidentally this occurred in the opening scene of a campaign. Needless to say, that was the last night of the campaign 'cuz nobody would play with the guy after that.

Some people play to win. Not much you can do with them other than present other ways of playing and if they fail to adapt give 'em the boot.

As someone already said, keep the best and evict the rest.

>>ReaperWolf

[GrumpyOldFart]

Sounds like he'd be good in a Paranoia game. 

[providence13]

Now, Paranoia was a good time!

[Usdrothek]

You have to say that, happiness is mandatory.

[providence13]

Take your Smile-Ups!