Topic: Maxing out weapon charts

[pastaav]

I use #1...but I am considering some special option for missile attacks. Most likely I will go with that melee attacks means many hits while missile and bolt attacks mean extra concussion hits but no extra critical roll.

[Arioch]

I have seen/heard of several ways of resolving this...

1) Once you hit 150, start at the bottom of the chart and work your way back up (i.e. a result of 275 == a 150 result and a 125 result added together).

2) Ignore everything over 150. (not a lot of fun there... hehe)

3) Every 10 points over 150 gives an extra hit of damage. Every 30 (or 50, different GMs have used different values) points above also gives an addition increase to the critical (i.e. F == E + A, G == E + B, etc).

4) Every 5 or 10 points over 150 adds +1 to the critical roll.. (i.e. increases the chance of maxing out on the critical...)

I use option #1, but only damage from the "over 150" result is added, extra criticals are ignored.

[yammahoper]

Any secondary missile crit should be unbalance.

lynn

[pastaav]

Any secondary missile crit should be unbalance.

Very good idea...A idea point to you.

[twh]

Any secondary missile crit should be unbalance.

Very good idea...A idea point to you.

I agree, and couldn't that also apply to melee attacks?

[Joshua24601]

Any secondary missile crit should be unbalance.

I agree, and couldn't that also apply to melee attacks?

You could use the secondary crit option for additional crits.  (for example for most sword I think puncture is the 1st secondary, then krush)

[Marc R]

I tend to use #1, and I used it for melee, missile and EAR, but Sorloc actually had a really good comment on that and I took that one.

Over 150 results for missile or EAR attacks are:

150 on target

Result-150 on the person standing behind the target (if any)

To a potential etc. etc. if you roll a 500 you could 150 the target, 150 the person behind them, 150 the person behind the 2nd target, and 50 the person behind the 3rd target. . .

So your missile/bolt goes completely through the target, and hits the next person in line.

I have noticed one dramatic difference in play between #2 (150+ is wasted) and any other version. . .with the "150+ is wasted" version, high level fighters devote a lot more OB to parry. . .since anything off the top of the chart is a waste, they tend to just use more parry. . .So the wrapping choices, all of them, tend to make the game signifigantly more deadly, since people are both doing more damage, and high OB attackers tend to use more, and devote less to defense.

[Arioch]

So the wrapping choices, all of them, tend to make the game signifigantly more deadly, since people are both doing more damage, and high OB attackers tend to use more, and devote less to defense.

Not talking of high level creatures like demons or giant, which also do multiple damage with each attack... ouch! 

[Joshua24601]

I tend to use #1, and I used it for melee, missile and EAR, but Sorloc actually had a really good comment on that and I took that one.

Over 150 results for missile or EAR attacks are:

150 on target

Result-150 on the person standing behind the target (if any)

To a potential etc. etc. if you roll a 500 you could 150 the target, 150 the person behind them, 150 the person behind the 2nd target, and 50 the person behind the 3rd target. . .

So your missile/bolt goes completely through the target, and hits the next person in line.

While it's kind of a cool idea... how realistic is it that a non-magical arrow, shot by a one-eyed kobold, wielding a bow made with a rubber band and Popsicle stick could go clean through a plate mail armed soldier?  Even if the Kobold rolled ridiculously lucky... it's just not gonna happen.  What about a thrown knife, or a blow dart?!?

Magic weapons passing through a target.. sure I can buy that.. but not the avarage bow and arrow.. (much less the rubber band and popsicle stick)

I'm also troubled that this system dosen't take the 2nd targets DB into account.  You could use the "surprise" bonus.. most fighters don't expect arrows to come through the chests of their mates and hit them... and you could even argue that the total surprise of an arrow traveling this way totally negates Qu bonus defense (though I wouldn't). 
But natural/magical armor DB should apply in ANY case a PC/NPC takes damage.

[twh]

I'm also troubled that this system dosen't take the 2nd targets DB into account.  You could use the "surprise" bonus.. most fighters don't expect arrows to come through the chests of their mates and hit them... and you could even argue that the total surprise of an arrow traveling this way totally negates Qu bonus defense (though I wouldn't). 
But natural/magical armor DB should apply in ANY case a PC/NPC takes damage.

I like the idea, too, yet I also have to agree that's it's Ahnold-style over-the-top (not that that's a bad thing).  How about applying the secondary targets' DBs to the respective attack rolls they each receive.  For example, the lucky kobold rolls 380 using his Popsicle stick bow:

Target #1 gets the full 150 attack,
Target #2 gets 150-DB attack,
Target #3 gets 80-DB attack.

You could also subtract each target's DB from the total remaining attack, in which case #2 above would still take a 150 attack but #3 would get 80-DB-DB (high DBs would affect this, obviously).  Or, using the first example, say that if #2 receives a final attack <150 (i.e., DB>0) then the arrow stops with him and #3 is spared.

I'm not really advocating any particular choice but this is definitely an interesting discussion, and I'll be presenting my players with these options at the first gaming session of our new campaign this Saturday.

[Marc R]

Actually, I misrepresented that a bit, the reality would be:

Attack result - target 1's DB = initial result.

Initial result maxes at 150 on target 1.

Initial result - 150 - target 2's db = second result

etc, etc. . . so the 500 example I gave above would only apply to 4 targets with zero missile DB.

In use, I find that wrapping the table on missile results most often happens with nastier foes than the kobold throwing a spear, and that almost all of the time it ends up being a hits result. (usually it's an open ended result giving say a 200ish total attack making for a 30-50 attack result on target 2)

thus, most of the time it's "The javelin thrown by the kobold strikes jerry in the neck, continues, and caroms off of joes shield with a clatter."

also, often there is no target 2, if nobody is standing behind the target, the missile or bolt goes on, perhaps striking an object like the wall. (I don't do JFK like magic bullets)

As to the unrealism of passing through the torso of a plate mail wearing foe to hit next target the results need to be tweaked to fit something realistic. . . .much like said kobold attacking said platemail wearing foe with a dagger in melee getting a slash result like "Blow cuts through foes shoulder and out the ribs, severing arm" needs to be changed. The crit text is just flavor and often needs adjusting. . .

So in a for instance where kobold bowman does a double open ended on two AT 20 wearing warriors that gets past their DB to to two E puncture results with high crit rolls, getting a "deep puncture into chest strikes major blood vessel, bleed 12/round, stunned 5 rounds" and "Strike to foes chest punctures heart, killing him instantly" I'd then ponder a moment and say to my players:

"The kobold releases the wooden arrow from his crappy makeshift bow, the wobbling arrow catches Jim just under the chin of his helmet, passing through a small portion of his neck that unfortunately includes both the jugular and carotid, continues on with most of it's force spent, and through utter happenstance strikes perfectly into the slit of joe's visor. It retains just enough force to puncture Joe's eye and lodge in his brain, killing him instantly. Jim, you're bleeding 12/round and stunned 5 rounds."

[chk]

3) Every 10 points over 150 gives an extra hit of damage. Every 30 (or 50, different GMs have used different values) points above also gives an addition increase to the critical (i.e. F == E + A, G == E + B, etc).

We do something slightly more complicated, but do it in software which makes it easy.

Most columns in the attack tables have an obvious damage progression, i.e. the number of attack points it takes to move up one damage point. For example, LongSword vs. AT20 is 12, while vs. AT1 is only 4. We simply extend that progression above 150. So a Longsword Attack roll (net) of 162 would add only one damage against AT20, but 3 damage against AT1.

We do critical progression the same way, but with a fixed 30 points increment for each crit level.  We sometimes use secondary crit rules, but usually just wrap (So an H slash becomes an E slash and a C slash). We consider multiple crits to be a single attack, but still roll them separately. This can both increase and reduce damage, but it averages out; more importantly, it means the bad guys don't get 2 (or 3) 66 results in a single attack against a player

[Marc R]

multiple rolls on multiple crits statisticly increases lethality. . .usually one 00 result is enough to kill you, so three 00s doesn't kill you any more dead. . .crits have roughly a 10% each of a result that will take you out of combat (Slightly less at the A end and slightly more toward the E end)

So a triple critical resolved on one roll has a 10% chance of killing you or taking you out of combat, call it 10% chance to make you an instant casualty.

A triple crit rolled three seperate times has three 10% chances of making you a casualty . . .odds are slightly less than 3x more likely to take you out done that way (since double dead and tripple dead are still just dead). I suspect that's the reason why most instances of multiple crits call for single roll resolution, it's vastly more lethal to roll them seperately.

[Joshua24601]

Played last night a tried this:

Our old system was for every 30 you were over 150 you gained an extra crit level (but it was always a 2nd crit and started with A.. so if you weapon maxed out with a C crit vs AT 20, you didn't get a D crit, instead you got a C and an A)
Last night we went with the chart rollover method.  With one major change, the rollovers started at 50, not 0, so a 225 would result in a 150 and a 125.
For melee this was described as two hits.. with arrows a single more devastating hit, with any 2nd crits being unbalance and being rolled independently from the first crit.

Compared to our old system we seemed to have less severe crits and more concussion hits.

We settled on +50 because we felt that was the most 'fair' compared to our previous system.  Without any plus a rollover would have to be really big to get any damage.  50 was also nice because it still leaves a window for the more agile lo AT's to completely avoid rollover damage, while the high AT's get nailed for extra hits at a 151.

[Fidoric]

While it's kind of a cool idea... how realistic is it that a non-magical arrow, shot by a one-eyed kobold, wielding a bow made with a rubber band and Popsicle stick could go clean through a plate mail armed soldier?  Even if the Kobold rolled ridiculously lucky... it's just not gonna happen.  What about a thrown knife, or a blow dart?!?

IIRC, that rule was designed for use with the crossbows in the old Arm Companion. And a crossbow fire through the toughest metal plate. I agree with you when it comes to the makeshift short bow.

[mathhatt]

I use #4 (10 points over 150 give +/- 1 to crit). It is interesting because often, players are very angry to deliver a mighty attack roll (some 250 or more) and then everything is ruined by an unlucky crit roll that makes the attack look very weak.

[Dax]

Yes, but the wrapping around the table gives them an additional Crit roll.
OK, maybe it is only an A-Crit, but another roll gives another chance for rolling high.

[FatSteve]

My group used to use a variation on #4, but as they began to get really good, I got tired of having my "leader" bad guys eviscerated in the second round of combat.  Now we use a variation on #3 that works like this:

First figure out how much you went over 150. 

Second, figure out what the "step" is at the top of the chart.  By this I mean how many of the top number of hits there are against that armor type.  For example, there are two 46's at the top of Battle Axe against AT1.  For this purpose, ignore critical severities, just look at the concussion hits (Example, club against AT20, runs from 8A at 135  to 8D at 150, so the step is 16).   

Divide the overage by the "step" and drop fractions.  Set a max of 2x normal damage. 

So, with a weapon like Battle Axe against an unarmored victim, the step is small and the additional dammage will add up quickly.  But, with something like a club against AT20 (step of 16), the potential to do more damage is there, but you would have to roll really high. 

This might seem a bit complicated at first, but you quickly get the hang of it.  Plus, we have FMB (Um... "Math Boy") in our group, which speeds up things a bit. 

I don't know for sure where this came from.  I think it just evolved over the last 20 years or so, but I'm not sure it if was originally based on someone else's idea.  They say the memory is... 

What was I talking about?

[mibsweden]

In our group we use #1. At the moment we are using extra criticals too (meaning the attacker got in more than 1 good hit), but we might be changing that and do only extra concussion hits because of strange results when using missile weapons.

[nordah]

We got a simple solution which has worked for us.
For first two 75 past 150 up to 300 you get double concussion and +10 to crit. After that you need 150 more. Simple, easy and it really counts if you get it.

Broadsword against skin: Result of 225 means 60 concussion and +10 E crit. 300 would be 90 concussion and +20 E crit. 450 would be 120 conc. and +30 E crit... 600 has never happened..

Maxing criticals:
If your crit is over 100 you can decide what happens. (GM approval of course)