Topic: Why magic is too powerful

[providence13]

Spell components always were a sticking point for me...
I like the fact that "they" could provide the PP! (Essence Companion IIRC)

Since we play RMFRP we removed the PP multipliers as it can be an abuse
I always thought these were way over powered too. I've thought of ways around this... level caps for PP X's; or, the lower multiplier can affect higher lvls while the upper multiplier can only affect lower levels. But this sounded too much like a workaround. The more you complicate the plumbing...

Then I thought to drop them altogether and go with PP Adders. These give a specific amount of PP/day. Decaying radiothermic generator of PP, Hekalite, or something. A +10 PP/day would do wonders for a low level Mage. This also does nothing much for a high level Mage.  

Now for Spell Adders. I hate the open endedness of this item! They should be tuned to a specific spell. Using a PP system for magic, this item provides any PP you need? Never liked it.
But a Spell Adder that only gave you Firebolt, or Shield 1/day is not nearly as powerful. They are constructed for a specific spell. ( If that doesn't fit your system, make it a Spell Store device. You cast, spend the PP and it "holds" the effect or something, tuned to specific Lists/spells having a PP or lvl cap.)

The downside of these devices (IMO) is that they should be easier to detect while in use. Higher "Ping" for Power Perception.. If you use that system.

These two changes help the newbies and don't do much to escalate power in the game; and of course, you have to Attune to it!

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

In other words you used some House Rules to limit magic users because otherwise they were too powerful...  

No more IMO that it's a house rule to give prices to anything. I mean, why doesn't everyone in my world live in a castle? Because it's expensive to build and maintain, way more than a farm. Is it a "house rule" to make it so? I don't think so...
Why isn't everyone a scholar instead of a peasant? Or a merchant instead of a peasant? It's not because of house rules, I think...

[yammahoper]

Another thing that could be eliminated to lower a casters power is to scrap the "effect per level of caster", this concept does not make sense.

I measure all per level results by the number of ranks known in the spell list.  I also figure casting ability/level by number of ranks known in the spell list (Know light law to level 5, then cast all spells from light law as a level 5 caster).

Over casting is all but removed from my game with the exception of the occassional scroll.

[providence13]

If magic is still "too powerful", change the rules. In the possible revision of the "Realistic" magic system, don't allow PP Dev. You only have what you started with at 1st lvl. Then one could use Ley Lines, spell components, Rituals, items, etc to cast spells. A serious reduction in magic; If you think that it is too powerful.

If that doesn't fly with your world view, use even more "realism." The more one is separated from Essence (for example), the more obstructed your PP!
Skyclad: no resistance. 1:1 PP
Light loose clothing (perhaps robes) 2:1 PP
Moderate covering (light armor) 3:1 PP
Heavy Covering (Med. Armor) 4:1 PP
Platemail (mx encumberance) 5:1 PP

Using Voice (with any above), Gestures (with Heavy Covering and below) and Body Movements/Spell Katas (with Light Covering and below) could also help. Maybe .333 for each one.
If you want to stack TA on to this...you could... or just have it deal with % to cast, as written.

[providence13]

Yammahopper, I might just steal that.. 

[yammahoper]

Yammahopper, I might just steal that.. 

Be warned; it makes a talent like POWER very strong indeed, since it allows a 1st level caster to know a list to level 10.

[Nders]

Users of magic will end up more powerful? Yeah, being able to bend the nature of reality to your will is going to do that. On the other hand, to become grossly powerful, Rolemaster spell casters need to advance more than a few levels, while Arms users shine a low levels. And those with experience in high level games tend to say that in the end, it is Semis, who combine spells with those "useless" skills that are the best characters at high levels, after the mid-level dominance of Pures/Hybrids.

Pure truth  

The thing is that even at the peak of their power pure spell users cannot handle things on their own. They will always need assistance the combination of the time it takes to cast spells and how vulnerable you are when you are doing it along with the lack of armor makes the mage ever dependent on help from others.

Also if using the recent combat companion a relatively powerful pure arms ie. 20 ranks in melee will, with the element "additional attack", be able to dice any commonly accesible race of pure or hybrid spell user in a single round if he gets close.

This is without even starting to mention how vulnerable spell users are to missile fire. A very powerful essence user can keep a good deal of archers at bay using shield mastery but he cannot keep them all at bay and cast any other spells or even keep them at bay and handle a single melle combatant at the same time.

Pure or hybrid spell users are mighty sure but they pay the price in vulnerability. Semi spell users do not and thus it is in my experience the semi spell users you should wory about at high levels.

[providence13]

Maybe I'll only use the ability to cast at Ranks possessed. That is the skill in that area.

Then, instead of per lvl bonus, ie 1 rnd/lvl, it will read 1 rnd/+1 PP! So, spend PP to cast. Ranks = Caster lvl (on Spell lvl-Caster lvl success chart) and if you want the "additional" effects (+10ft/lvl, 1rnd/lvl, +1 target/lvl, etc)
you spend 1 PP per increment.... It might need a "Character lvl as mx PP +", but I'll have to play and see.

Don't use many Talents at all. But that is a good warning.

[Arioch]

This is without even starting to mention how vulnerable spell users are to missile fire. A very powerful essence user can keep a good deal of archers at bay using shield mastery but he cannot keep them all at bay and cast any other spells or even keep them at bay and handle a single melle combatant at the same time.

A very powerful Essence user would not use shield mastery if confronted with a high number of archers, he'd cast invisibility or wall of stone to make himself unhittable and then fry them with Stone Fires or something like that 

But yes, somewhat Combat Companion makes fighter "shine" more during fights, which is a good thing IMHO, maybe we need also a Stealth Companion and an Outdoor Companion?

[Yapadekoi]

I agree with the last idea of Arioch:

I think magic is potentially more fun and powerful than other skills, because Ice worked more on it than on the other skills.
A spell user is a powerful jack of all trade because he've got ton of spell list in which he can pick his better choice.
NOT because the spell list are too powerful IMHO

In theory with a pure "skill" user you can reach the same objective than a spell caster, with no more exhaustion or pain.
(like a high level thief could poison the whole castle or a ranger train a pet to go into the castle treasure etc..)
 but they are a bit limited by the lack of diversity the core rule give to their skill, while spell user were given a lot of choice.

I think a good player can make magic too powerful because Ice give him tons of goods and  original materials to use:
one book for each realm (mentalism, essence, théurgie) and an extra for "ice and fire". An interested player who have a skill-user character haven't got so much choice: he must rely more on his RP/imagination/GM's indulgence.

He simply have less material to shine, we reach here the limit of any RPG where the core/focus-rule influence the story.

[Nders]

A very powerful Essence user would not use shield mastery if confronted with a high number of archers, he'd cast invisibility or wall of stone to make himself unhittable and then fry them with Stone Fires or something like that  Grin

This implies that not only does our mage observe his enemies before they see him but he also wins initiative to such an extend that he avoids getting attacked entirely! But wait... You surely would not insist that an invisible character could not be attacked in the round he casts invisibility or that he could not be targeted as soon as he pops up as he casts his stone fires. You also seem to automatically asume that the spell user knows about his advesaries before they know of him and as anyone who has played a spell user knows this is rarely the case. There may be pure or hybrid spell users who can develop more than a single rank in perception (seer perhaps) but I don't seem to recall any at the moment. Almost every single semi or pure arms can develop two ranks pr level and as such they will usually even at half the level be more observant of the spell user than he is of them.
Add to this the development of stalk and hide and you have really put you spell user under preassure 
And yet there is more: ranges on spells, even the most magnificent of them are vastly inferior to missile weapons and as such you are never out of striking range with your spell user. Invisibility can be used to gain a momentary advantage but you only get a single shot before you appear and you better hope they all die or are incapacitated from that single spell you get to cast because you are probably either within melee range before the next round starts or in other ways under some sort of preassure.

Also it should be noted that combat companion is not for fighters alone. All arms users and even a good deal of spell user gain powers from this source book an as such it is IMO the very best source book we have seen in years. I may have some problems with the elemental warrior but that is another topic entirely 

[Marc R]

I find often it's best not to sass the caster, until you're 2' away, then stab them repeatedly.

I find that the "class" of player is far more dangerous than the profession of their character. . . .a player with a strong grasp of the rules and good tactical sense is very, very dangerous, caster or non caster.

I suspect we've all known players who can be handed a 3rd level Farmer, and be a menace to behold. . .as much as we know players who play casters and seem to succeed in getting themselves killed at least every 3 sessions. (The record, in my group, was one player who succeeded in getting killed three times in one long session.)

Casters are also not that great at dealing with long term intermittent danger. . . .how many long sessions have consisted of the non casters bodyguarding the casters, the casters occasionally casting, storing up PPs against really needing them, unloading in some climactic moment, then again hiding behind the non asters until they get some PPs back. . . .most casters mack up on lores and the like not because they're cheap, but to give them something to do for 80% of a session.

[ironmaul]

But yes, somewhat Combat Companion makes fighter "shine" more during fights, which is a good thing IMHO, maybe we need also a Stealth Companion and an Outdoor Companion?

Not this side of the revision you won't.

Look at the Ariochs first post and you'll find that the main argument is a spell caster being able to do what every other proffession does in skills(mundane included) over a period of time and not just offensive power.

[Arioch]

This implies that not only does our mage observe his enemies before they see him but he also wins initiative to such an extend that he avoids getting attacked entirely!

And you imply that the archers have already spotted the mage, that they have their bows loaded, that they've won initiative, that caster isn't acting in the snap phase, that they're prepared to face a caster and exactly know how to react when someone vanishes before your eyes and many other things...
But, where is this going? I can't really see your point here, there's little anyone can do against a group of archers, even a warrior in full plate, save take cover or run. And, again, casters have far more options than non users for doing so.

Also it should be noted that combat companion is not for fighters alone. All arms users and even a good deal of spell user gain powers from this source book an as such it is IMO the very best source book we have seen in years.

Yes, but it covers only combat. Again, with too powerful I do not mean powerful in combat.
If it was only for mages blasting groups of foes with fireballs it wouldn't have been a problem. the real problem comes from the fact that they can also do a lot of other things.
The problem comes from lists such as Delving Ways, Detecting Ways, Essence's Perceptions, Unbarring Ways, Invisible Ways, etc etc.
Lists that can mimic the effects of skills, often with better results than the "real" skills themselves.
Imho these spell lists should be rethinked, or the effectivness of mundane skills should be increased: a master thief with 30+ ranks in Hiding should be better at doing it than a mage with a few ranks in the skill and Invisibility.

[fac]

But, where is this going? I can't really see your point here, there's little anyone can do against a group of archers, even a warrior in full plate, save take cover or run. And, again, casters have far more options than non users for doing so.

Agincourt!!!!

Anyway, I have to agree with Steven Z. Brust: "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

Some weeks ago, the PC monk attacked the NPC spell user 2 times (evil magician), one was deflected the second hit and the spell user was stunned. In the following round, the monk attacked him 2 times more, no spells because the stun. Spell user was dead in the 3rd round.

I use RM2.

Spell users have many options but it's impossible to take it all.

[Arioch]

Some weeks ago, the PC monk attacked the NPC spell user 2 times (evil magician), one was deflected the second hit and the spell user was stunned. In the following round, the monk attacked him 2 times more, no spells because the stun. Spell user was dead in the 3rd round.

But what does it means?? Non users can't be hit and stunned, too!
And why we always end up talking about combat?

[ironmaul]

I believe the returning talk about combat all the time is because it's "hardwired" into most gamers brains! I also have a feeling that if there is a revision, it will still follow the same route as previous RM editions. Why? because people will expect it and mitch and boan about it if it changes. I love RM's combat system, that's where its strength lies, it's the spell system that fails it. Yeah, I know you fans out there love it but really, it's a bloody mess!

[fac]

Because Pottery is not a typical activity during play.

I don't know how your games are but in mine there is a combat every 4-5 days, but I think it's important.

Seriously, non combat situations are usually solved through a mix of skills and role playing, but for example, can a magician copy a Leadership roll? Maybe he can dominate the target but it's not the same at all. How does a spell user to copy sailing? Maybe he can teleport with very few people but...no.

Ironmaul, maybe you don't like magic system of RM but reallly, it's good enough, and far better than other systems.

[ironmaul]

Fac, I agree combat is important in a game.

Ironmaul, maybe you don't like magic system of RM but reallly, it's good enough, and far better than other systems.

I'll take your word on that Although, HARP's spell system is a step in the right direction.

...can a magician copy a Leadership roll? Maybe he can dominate the target but it's not the same at all.

That's the point, it's not the same(or is it?) but it's more powerfull than the skill as Arioch was pointing out before.

How does a spell user to copy sailing?

Given half the chance I bet the authours of Spell Law would have! 

[Marc R]

I do recall those lists like sailing, farming, etc. . .heheh. . .was it the SUC? yeah, I think it was the SUC.

Generally, I would assume magic is going to be magical, above and beyond ordinary, and short of nerfing it really hard, having magical abilities will be a major advantage in a broad sense over not having them.

I dunno that there's any way to ever balance that. . . .even if you took RM as is and multiplied spell costs by 10x, magic is still magic.

Forget all those combat aps like invisibility, or even the limited to few people transportations. . . .magic can create or destroy matter and energy. . . .if you can't scheme up a creative way to take advantage of that way out of scale with the spell's apparent power and level, you're not trying hard enough.

Shrug, that's essentially true of ANY system that allows magic. . . .it's like saying "All of you exist in a quazi realistic framework based on real world science, except this guy, who can violate the heck out of the laws of nature, and do it somewhat casually."