Author Topic: Game focus: characters or world simulation?  (Read 20561 times)

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Offline Arioch

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2009, 01:46:59 AM »
Is it possible for a GM to cheat? Well, players can cheat yes but can a GM really cheat? What is cheating for a GM?

IMHO yes, he can cheat and actually, given the power he has, he's often tempted to do it much more than the players are.
What's cheating for a GM? Imho cheating is always the same thing or, as I've said above: "ignoring the rules or fudging dice for any reason".
You may argue that rules explicitly say that the GM can ignore the rules when he wants, even without telling the players that he's doing it. Well, (as Andy from Little Britain would say) I don't like it.
I think that it should always be clear to all when the group is using the rules and what rules the group is using.

Arioch> I think this is an interesting thread, we just have to remember we're all friends.  ;D

Yeah, no grudge held against anyone... hey we're talking about games, aren't we?  ;D
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2009, 03:12:22 AM »
Arioch,
[As said above I am simply trying to figure out what you are saying and how to fix your problem. I hope there is no animosity between us, as that is not my focus or purpose in posting. And I think it is not your purpose either.]

 So a player can spend a Fate Points only if he has some background reason for it?  Or it is written into his past or a present reason?

1) In this case a boy who grew up in the woods and whose father was a woodsman can use a fate point to read tracks?
2) The same boy who now has served his Lord in battle can spend Fate points in combat? Or on a military organization skill roll?

 First if it works for you and your players go for it. Try it out and see where it goes.
[Also as I said before I am in a WoD game and they let you spend Willpower points to modify a skill roll by +3 dice, a defense roll by +3 dice or a supernatural ability roll by +3 dice. Does it work? Well IMO yes and no. By that I mean it depends on how fast your PC can gain Willpower points back and the penalties for having no will power left.]

 But IMO it sounds like the players are trying to do things beyond there humble beginnings or skill level but that is only a guess from way over here in Oregon, USA and my eyes are not good enough to see your game in Italy. Also if I may ask how old are the members in your group? What other pen and paper games do you and they play and what computer games do you and they play. The above info will give me and others a profile of what your game group is like and how you RPG and it may help us with a response to your problem or house rule.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2009, 06:31:23 AM »
So a player can spend a Fate Points only if he has some background reason for it?  Or it is written into his past or a present reason?

To tell the truth I was thinking the opposite (a player cannot spend Fate Points in things related to his background).
I know it seems illogical, but I'm trying to remove the risk from things not related to a character's background/motivations.
Why? Well, risk is exciting, is one of the reasons that makes rpgs fun imho. Rolling the dice to see if you succeed in something you care for, knowing that if you fail you'll suffer the consequences of your failure, it's cool. It's like gambling: you bet that you'll get a success from you roll, if you win you get what you want, if you don't bad things happen... OTOH misplaced risk (having to face risk in situations that you don't find interesting) can really ruin the day, it's like betting on something you don't care for!

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Also if I may ask how old are the members in your group? What other pen and paper games do you and they play and what computer games do you and they play. The above info will give me and others a profile of what your game group is like and how you RPG and it may help us with a response to your problem or house rule.

Sure: we're all between 25 and 28. Other than RM or HARP we mostly play GURPS, Call of Cthulhu or Vampire...
As for video games: my favourite genres are survival horrors (like Silent Hill), JRPG (Final Fantasy ets) and beat 'em up
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #143 on: February 12, 2009, 07:22:38 AM »
Arioch,

could you make an example in witch these faits points will be used?

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #144 on: February 12, 2009, 08:57:54 AM »
What I'm trying to say here is that I think that RM rules system has a flaw in its internal logic: it's basically trying to do two things, each of them being the opposite of the other.
It tries to simulate a fantasy world, to be a set of "physical" rules of that world, to which all characters must obey at the same manner. A world where what the characters (and, more importantly, their players) want doesn't mean anything, as they're just like all others inhabitants of the world.
And, at the same time it tries to have you use your characters to tell a story where they are the protagonists, the most important people in the world (again, by important I don't mean powerful! You can be a simple farmer doing ordinary things all day, but if you're the protagonist of a story, you're the most important person in it!).
...
I've got nothing against both of things, but I think they're mutually exclusive.
IMHO there are simple means which let both goals (if the above were indeed goals of the designers) be achieved. One thing is that the story the GM creates will usually focus on the PCs. This makes them more important for the story than the rest of the game world which is only in the background. And if they should be powerful beings in the game worlds then the PCs will simply be of higher level than the average beings in the game world. So they will still use the same rules that are applicable for all characters in the game world, but they will still be more powerful due to their higher level.

As many RPGs RM uses some rules that give PCs an edge over NPCs of the same level e.g. the stats of a PC are a bit higher than the average, PCs can have Fate Points to avert death a few times.

So I don't see why the above two goals should be mutually exclusive.
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And this sort of "schizophrenia" IMHO is the cause of a lot of problems that we often complain about or try to find a solution to here on the boards.
I'm talking of problems like:
- skill bloat: I realized that the number of skills is a false problem. The real problem is not the number of skills, but their importance (I can hear you say:"well yes, we already knew that!" but let me finish  ;D).
If you're trying to simulate a world then it's quite logical to have an almost infinite number of skills and it's also logical that some skills will be less useful than others.
OTOH if you want to make your characters the protagonists the system should make sure that all of your character skills are equally important. If you spend ranks in cooking it's probably because it's an aspect of your character that you think is important and you'd like to explore. So the rules should give you a way to do that, to make stories about your character cooking.  :)
It is IMO nothing special to RM that an RPG tries to "simulate" a world. The question is how far this simulation goes. I know the old slogan on some RM books "Make it real, make it Rolemaster!". But even though such a sentence was printed on some old RM books, I am quite sure that RM never intended to create a perfect real world simulation.

Therefore it is the choice of the RM players and GMs how much detail they want to have. RM2 and RMC fortunately have a very limited set of "primary" skills and additional skills are optional. So if your style of play involves very much detail about the characters abilities then the group should perhaps go for more skills, if this is too much detail for them, then they might leave the "secondary" skills aside. RMSS/RMFRP does not have this core and optional skills, so the GM has to decide which skills to use and which not and perhaps also modify DPs if removing many of the skills.
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- randomness of criticals: again, if you're trying to simulate a world, then critical randomness isn't a real problem, the problem is that you spend 30+ minutes making a sheet for your character, which maybe will die after 5 minutes of play...
If instead you're trying to make your character the protagonist of a story... well, then such randomness is a problem! I'm not saying that your character shouldn't die at all, but just that he shouldn't die doing things that you think are meaningless (like, you know, fighting that kobold just before the Big Bad Boss  :D).
I agree so far that it demotivates players to spend time and energy into creating and playing a character and this character dies from a single unfortunate critical. But this applies to RPGs which try to give a very realistic world simulation as well as those that don't go into much detail. Btw., RMs criticals and attack tables are certainly not a part of the game where the focus was on very much realism - and this is good. The focus is more on flavour of the game.

Nevertheless the critical hits lead to combat being much less predictable than in a game were the PC has a set of hit points and these are continually reduced when he takes damage. As the combat rules are, it can easily happen that a character suddenly dies from an unfortunate critical roll - exactly what can demotivate a player. It would IMO have been better to include rules such as the Fate Point rule from the start and have it as a core rule, so that these unfortunate PC deaths can be averted.
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So, I'm NOT saying "hey guys, let's scrap realism and make all PCs invincible heroes above all others characters in the world!".
I'm saying: "let's find a way to be sure that RM does what we want it to do!".
IMO you need nothing but the Fate Point rule from Channeling Companion and the main problem you mentioned is solved. The changes you proposed to the Fate Point rule might work well for your game, but they lead away from the focus you had in this older posting, which seems to have been to enable the PCs to be the heroes in the game and not letting them die suddenly from an unlucky roll.

Offline jolt

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #145 on: February 12, 2009, 09:30:06 AM »
@ Jolt:

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I don't understand the notion that by houseruling a game or adding fate points or whatever, you've somehow lessened the game.

I never said that, I said that by cheating imho the GM lessen the gaming experience (that's why I'm trying to make and house rule to reduce the need of cheating  ;))

Well, IMO, that's splitting some pretty fine hairs.  What are fate points but a rule that allows you to cheat?  If the rules said that a GM can fudge die rolls would it still be cheating?  If yes, then I don't see how fate points are any better.  If no, then I don't see a problem.

That being said, I have a different definition of cheating than you do.  To me, cheating only occurs if the player or GM steps outside the bounds of the story they're trying to create.  And I would presume that this would have already been established prior to play.  If it hasn't, I think there are going to be problems whether the GM fudges die rolls or not.  This was part of why I brought up Amber but it's a meaningless reference if you haven't read it.

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I'm generally against anything that gives specific rules on how to roleplay.

Well, that's obviously subjective but, if the rules are well done I find these kind of rules very interesting.

If you change the two uses of the word "rules" in your quote above to "suggestions" or "guidelines" then I would agree.  But as hard an fast rules, probably not.  The only way I could see doing something like that is if I was trying to mimic Ultima IV's Quest of the Avatar style where adhering to vertain virtues and principles was critical.  In that case I would probably adapt something like Pendragon's trait system but that's an extremely specific type of game.  I wouldn't normally want that worked in as core rules because it forces the players too much down a certain path and flexibility is lost.  As an option I would have no problems with it.  Really, you could do this already with RMSS/FRP's alignment system (don't know if Classic still contains this) though I don't know how many people actually bother with it.

Quote from: giulio.trimarco
Sorry, I wasn't mean to be rude.

Neither was I.  My apologies if it came across that way.

jolt
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 09:44:12 AM by jolt, Reason: Fingers got ahead of my brain. »
"Logic will take you from A to B.  Imagination will take you everywhere." ~Einstein

Offline markc

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #146 on: February 12, 2009, 02:00:14 PM »
Jolt,
Some thoughts.
 Story Driven Game: The problem I have with this is that vary rarely does the GM write in that a PC will die. And if they do need a PC to die for a plot point then players might feel that they did not have a valid chance to get out of a trap or encounter. I also do not know of any long running games that depend on PC's dyeing. That does not mean they are not out there it just means I do not know of any.
 Also in story type games the GM generally has a plot line that is somewhat independent of what the players do, do not do or how well they do something. But also this type of game can free the player from the ?risk? of war games. Combat and dying are still present but not as much of a factor as the PC will almost always survive a situation either through their own skills or through the care of others.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #147 on: February 12, 2009, 02:10:04 PM »
Arioch;
First my comments are just comments and not hostile in any way.
 So your idea is to let players spend some "type of points" for rolls in which do not apply to their background? So if my poor farmer PC can spend "points" to learn a spell list? Or can spend points to read a lost language?
 In the above case would it not be better if a PC had no background as then they would not have as many areas in which they cannot spend ?points?.

Game Info:
Thanks for the info I forgot to ask one question how many players play in your game? And on average how many NPC?s are with your PC?s.

Thanks again
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #148 on: February 12, 2009, 03:56:14 PM »
So a player can spend a Fate Points only if he has some background reason for it?  Or it is written into his past or a present reason?

To tell the truth I was thinking the opposite (a player cannot spend Fate Points in things related to his background).
I know it seems illogical, but I'm trying to remove the risk from things not related to a character's background/motivations.

How can the players know the event does not have to do with their background without revealing the plot in advance?

I mean suppose one of the players have a enemy that want him captured and taken to stand trial for some crime he really did not commit. The enemy hire troops to capture the character. At what point does the player loose the option to reduce the risk?
When he see his enemy commanding the troops?
When the GM tells him that he can not evade the encounter?
When he failed to say "This fight seem pointless and dangerous, let's outrun them." at the right time?

For that matter what happens if the encounter is only personal to some of the characters?
How can it be avoided that parts of the plot is revealed by who votes to avoid the encounter?
/Pa Staav

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #149 on: February 12, 2009, 03:59:58 PM »
Arioch,

perhaps the system you propose will work better with experience points than fate points.
Following your beliefs and passions and you gain more experience, development points, etc.
Go against your personality and you will grow less.


Offline markc

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »
Arioch,

perhaps the system you propose will work better with experience points than fate points.
Following your beliefs and passions and you gain more experience, development points, etc.
Go against your personality and you will grow less.



 When I first read the above post I thought you were saying that instead of Fate points let the players spend some of their Exp to "help out" in specific encounters. But I read it again and giulio.trimarco was saying that you get more "help points" at lower levels and they decrease as your PC gains in experience.

Airoch
 IMO both might work in your game and both might work well. But I would like to do a test run of the "paying Exp" to help your PC out. giulio.trimarco's idea is common in some RPG's right now. One of the first is Eberon for D&D 3.5 and action points, except action points increase as your level increases.   

 Also I hope that I am coming across as trying to help as that is my purpose.
MDC 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2009, 07:35:25 PM »
I'm traslating in english the draft of my house rule, when I've finished I'll post it here on the boards , I think it'll make things a lot clearer  :)

Well, IMO, that's splitting some pretty fine hairs.  What are fate points but a rule that allows you to cheat?

Yes, as I've said above Fate Point are a rule that formalize cheating. And that's why (imho obviously) they're better: because they make sure that everyone know that people are "cheating", how they are cheating and when they're cheating.

If the rules said that a GM can fudge die rolls would it still be cheating?

If the rules gave clear indications on when and how the GM can fudge the rolls (or ignore rolls results), then imho it would be ok.
If the rules just say the the GM can fudge rolls whenever he wants and give no explanation on how he can do it or if he should tell the players when he does it... well that's bad imho.

Game Info:
Thanks for the info I forgot to ask one question how many players play in your game? And on average how many NPC?s are with your PC?s.

Hmmm... usually 3 to 5 players (plus the GM).
Not sure if I've understood your second question correctly. What do you mean with "with the PCs"? If you mean NPCs who goes around following (or leading) the party on average we have 1 to 3 NPCs for each PC. If you mean how many NPCs they encounter each session... we tend to play city-based adventures so a lot!  :D
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2009, 07:47:37 PM »
Arioch,
 I was asking about NPC's that travel with and help or lead the PC's. 3 to 5 players is a good amount to play with. I do not have an good answer to your problem as 3-5 PC's + 1-3 NPC per party member = 6 to 20 people to aid in a given task. I would think that all the NPC's and PC's have different skill sets and at least 1 would be fairly good in the skill area needed.
 If you were running and adventure with a lot of climbing and 5 out of the 20 did not have any climbing skill, I think I would allow the main Character with climbing skill aid the others. Other Characters who had less skill then the main Character would add small bonus to the total climbing roll also. If this is the situation you are talking about then I would use mods for the first person climbing and after they made it to the top then he would provide another roll to help those who were not as skilled as him.

Does that help or am I way off base?
MDC 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Game focus: characters or world simulation?
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2009, 09:22:17 PM »
Here I've posted the HR I've come up with:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=8149.msg104229#msg104229


Edit: after playtesting it I would like to turn it into a GC article, so if you think that someting won't work tell me please!
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.