Topic: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?

[EvilWilliam]

Can I whisper it, but I actually like the art in RMU, yes, it's slightly naive, but it has charm.

[cdcooley]

Having had time to live with it for a while now, I also like almost all of the RMU art. Unfortunately, I really dislike the covers and that first impression influenced my judgement of all of the art for a while.

I wish the covers were done in the same style as the images at the start of most chapters. Those feel like Rolemaster to me and the covers simply don't.

Interestingly I frequently had the opposite problem with earlier editions. The cover art was great and some of the interior images were lacking. But for me the absolute worse art problem was the attempt to create a new design aesthetic for Shadow World with the Master Atlas 4 and Powers of Light & Darkness. My dislike of the RMU covers is nothing compared to my loathing for those because it extended to replacing the white space on each page with that hideous dark frame.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Having had time to live with it for a while now, I also like almost all of the RMU art. Unfortunately, I really dislike the covers and that first impression influenced my judgement of all of the art for a while.

I wish the covers were done in the same style as the images at the start of most chapters. Those feel like Rolemaster to me and the covers simply don't.

Products not meeting expectations is something I know all about, recent years Star Wars content VS the older trilogy, new Motu content vs the older etc.
The first 5 core Rolemaster Unified books (Core, Spell, Treasure, Creature 1 and 2) are more than likely to be made by the same individual. There's a chance you might see something you like beyond those though 

[Hurin]

Having had time to live with it for a while now, I also like almost all of the RMU art. Unfortunately, I really dislike the covers and that first impression influenced my judgement of all of the art for a while.

I wish the covers were done in the same style as the images at the start of most chapters. Those feel like Rolemaster to me and the covers simply don't.

Interestingly I frequently had the opposite problem with earlier editions. The cover art was great and some of the interior images were lacking. But for me the absolute worse art problem was the attempt to create a new design aesthetic for Shadow World with the Master Atlas 4 and Powers of Light & Darkness. My dislike of the RMU covers is nothing compared to my loathing for those because it extended to replacing the white space on each page with that hideous dark frame.

I am mostly the same. One of the strengths of Rolemaster is its grittiness and granularity -- call it realism if you want, or at least an attempt at being more realistic than D&D, which was in fact the original impetus for Rolemaster -- and the covers do not convey that at all. They are more cartoony. I wasn't expecting another Angus McBride, but there is interior art that is considerably better than the covers.

[Thot]

Having had time to live with it for a while now, I also like almost all of the RMU art. [...]

I wholeheartedly disagree. RMU's art is horrible for the purpose that it should serve, namely, to inspire people to play fantastic characters.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Quoting an official statement by ICE this weekend regarding AI generated content in ICE products, after someone asked permission to create content with AI generated images for use with VTTs:

quote

"Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'm afraid it is a no for now. We don't want our products to feature AI artwork in any form."

quote stop

[Thot]

Quoting an official statement by ICE this weekend regarding AI generated content in ICE products, after someone asked permission to create content with AI generated images for use with VTTs:

quote

"Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'm afraid it is a no for now. We don't want our products to feature AI artwork in any form."

quote stop

Whatever. The question remains: Will we get halfway decent art in future books?

[jdale]

Whatever. The question remains: Will we get halfway decent art in future books?

What do you imagine is going to change? Do you suppose sales will go through the roof and increase the art budget?

I expect after the core books are out, companions will have black and white interior art.

[Cory Magel]

The question remains: Will we get halfway decent art in future books?

That depends largely on what your opinion of 'decent' is. It won't be the same as other ICE customers (obviously from this thread alone).

[pastaav]

It is unrealistic to expect Ironcrown to commission new covers for the books at this point. The most important priority must be to get all the books out to satisfy those customers who was interested enough in the books to buy them with the current covers.

Considering how long we can expect RMU to in print it seems likely there will be an updated version in future with errata items fixed and some of art replaced, but starting that process now in the hope of a few extra sales seem like madness.

[Mordenkainen]

The problem in my opinion is the lack of a (good) art director and/or layout maven. Artists can be hit or miss but the art director must be able to select talent and put his foot down when the artist under-delivers. The layout is grade school level. Note how the art is always a simple block with no fitting of the text around the art at times to make it pop, or other simple devices. Look at any decent RPG book and you will see what I mean.

Look, a lot of us fans are not visually oriented. But it seems no-one in the current ICE food chain is. Therefore no-one was there to say at any stage, "this isn't good enough." They still might think it is. But sales suffer because most people are visually oriented and can tell something is off even when they can't articulate what.

[pawsplay]

What do you imagine is going to change? Do you suppose sales will go through the roof and increase the art budget?

... Not with those covers. Sorry.

[Cory Magel]

The problem in my opinion is the lack of a (good) art director and/or layout maven.

The 'problem' is pretty obvious. ICE isn't in a position to be paying higher end artists. Period.

This isn't the ICE that had the MERP license, was in the top five RPG's, and paying people like Angus to do their covers and probably never will be. Constantly coming at them about art isn't going to do anything but dishearten people who are working for pennies.  I don't mean to be a Richard... but everyone needs to get over it and move on.  Worry about the substance of the RPG itself, you aren't flipping through the books while playing to admire the art, you're at a table playing the game itself.

[5th Knight of Xar]

This post is addressing the "sales worries". Anyone can access these numbers within Drivethrurpg, where products reach certain metal tiers based on number of copies sold:

Adamantine Best seller tier (sold 5001 copies or more) - 202 products have reached this tier (0.14%)
Mithral Best seller tier (sold 2501 copies or more) - 510 products have reached this tier  (0.35%)
Platinum Best seller tier (sold 1001 copies or more) - 2462 products have reached this tier  (1.68%)
Gold Best seller tier (sold 501 copies or more) - 5705 products have reached this tier  (3.89%)
Electrum Best seller tier (sold 251 copies or more) - 10403 products have reached this tier  (7.09%)
Silver Best seller tier (sold 101 copies or more) - 20344 products have reached this tier  (13.86%)
Copper Best seller tier (sold 51 copies or more) - 19260 products have reached this tier  (13.12%)

A total of 58886 products fall into these Best seller tiers ( “Only” 40.13% of all Drivethru products have reached Copper or better)

Rolemaster Unified Core Law – Platinum Best seller – First published 3.Dec 2022
Rolemaster Unified Spell Law – Platinum Best seller – First published 20.Mar 2023
Rolemaster Unified Treasure Law – Gold Best seller – First published 7.Feb 2024

Other rpg products from “well known franchises” currently in the Platinum Best seller level:
Fallout, Warhammer, The One Ring, Alien, Star Trek, Pathfinder… and more.
Considering most/many non-ICE titles in the Platinum Best seller level are around $10 or even less, I’d argue that ICE’s new RMU products are doing
extremely well for being a “niche” rpg system made on the spare time by a very small group of people. Sales where each copy sold are around $25-30 for
a digital pdf, heading towards Mithral Best seller level next, regardless if anyone dislike anything about the new books.

Anyone thinking that Rolemaster products would sell in the range around or above 5000 these days are simply “out of their minds”, but we’ll get to those numbers one day.

[pawsplay]

The 'problem' is pretty obvious. ICE isn't in a position to be paying higher end artists. Period.

There are plenty of books with smaller audiences and better art. Core Laws is a platinum seller. Assuming $2 from each copy went to art, that's an art budget of at least $2000. I've done more with less.

[5th Knight of Xar]

The 'problem' is pretty obvious. ICE isn't in a position to be paying higher end artists. Period.

There are plenty of books with smaller audiences and better art. Core Laws is a platinum seller. Assuming $2 from each copy went to art, that's an art budget of at least $2000. I've done more with less.

Show us what you've published, please?

[Mordenkainen]

The problem in my opinion is the lack of a (good) art director and/or layout maven.

The 'problem' is pretty obvious. ICE isn't in a position to be paying higher end artists. Period.

This isn't the ICE that had the MERP license, was in the top five RPG's, and paying people like Angus to do their covers and probably never will be. Constantly coming at them about art isn't going to do anything but dishearten people who are working for pennies.  I don't mean to be a Richard... but everyone needs to get over it and move on.  Worry about the substance of the RPG itself, you aren't flipping through the books while playing to admire the art, you're at a table playing the game itself.

It's not (only) about paying more for art.
Look at the layout here.
https://imgur.com/a/14hOu4p
This is a random page, literally the first page I flipped to from the last pdf I had open.
See how the shape of the art has been incorporated into the column layout of the page? See how background textures have been used? See how there is a shadow from the dwarf which spills over into the page? This all gives it life and visual appeal. It's basic stuff at this point. Nothing to do with budget.

[Cory Magel]

The 'problem' is pretty obvious. ICE isn't in a position to be paying higher end artists. Period.

There are plenty of books with smaller audiences and better art. Core Laws is a platinum seller. Assuming $2 from each copy went to art, that's an art budget of at least $2000. I've done more with less.

Examples please, with all the required relevant information for a fair comparison (see below).

It's not (only) about paying more for art.
Look at the layout here.
https://imgur.com/a/14hOu4p
This is a random page, literally the first page I flipped to from the last pdf I had open.
See how the shape of the art has been incorporated into the column layout of the page? See how background textures have been used? See how there is a shadow from the dwarf which spills over into the page? This all gives it life and visual appeal. It's basic stuff at this point. Nothing to do with budget.

Who is publishing this book, who's in charge of it, what's their budget for it, what does the book cost, and how big is their target audience?
If you think it has nothing to do with budget you haven't actually created such a book.

[Thot]

Whatever. The question remains: Will we get halfway decent art in future books?

What do you imagine is going to change? Do you suppose sales will go through the roof and increase the art budget?

I expect after the core books are out, companions will have black and white interior art.

Well, I know ONE method to get excellent art for low cost. But you have ruled that out because… reasons, I guess.

But there are certainly others. I mean, you could use basically any ancient naturalistic drawing of landscapes, battles, etc, that is old enough to be public domain, and use or modify those. Just as one example.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Well, I know ONE method to get excellent art for low cost. But you have ruled that out because… reasons, I guess.

ICE show they have ethics, which is very positive in any individual or company.

But there are certainly others. I mean, you could use basically any ancient naturalistic drawing of landscapes, battles, etc, that is old enough to be public domain, and use or modify those. Just as one example.

Old ICE used "clip art" for their 90s books for example, we can only guess current ICE did not want to do that.