Topic: Magical Security – exactly what spells to use in RM??

[C.Tozer]

Some Mentalist guards with Presence True (only 9th level spell, and does not cost powerpoints to use) can work wonders too.

Hmmmmmm ... yep that could work too. Thanks

[C.Tozer]

Some Mentalist guards with Presence True (only 9th level spell, and does not cost powerpoints to use) can work wonders too.

I assume that the default is not to have spellcasters as regular guards Presence True is (C), which is an issue. And you will have to rotate your spellcasters at least three, and likely four, times a day, which increases the manpower requirements significantly.

Presence also has a drawback: it does not distinguish  friends from foes, so you can only detect abnormal activity in a location. But I agree that it is a significant early warning spell if the location is suitable.

Ah. Yes true that.

[C.Tozer]

A constant item of Detect Invisible would allow you to monitor a small area (like a gate) relatively continuously. Illusionists in RMSS have Detect Invisible as a 2nd level spell. Whether that's an affordable solution depends on the availability of magic items and the budget, but it's an option.

Hi jdale - thanks too for answering the question I asked. Yep I think that a constant item might be the way to go with a permenant Detect Invisible alays on.

As mentioned below I'm kinda suprised that that option seems to be about the only way to achieve what I asked in the core spell law book (ie without having to reach for one of the companions).

If anyone has another suggestion I'd be keen to hear.

Thanks again JD.

[C.Tozer]

Alternately, for your doorway example, I would say that the base effect for the enchantment would be a Waiting Phantasm with a Detect Invisibility merged in as a secondary effect to accomplish the trigger. Monitoring a 9' by 8' gate opening would be no problem even for a standard 5' radius detection spell if you simply enchant the door frame itself. The radius would extend out from all parts of the frame so you would be fully covering the space inside with some overlap to spare. The Phantasm can then alert the guards with whatever effect is desired. And since Waiting Phantasm has a day duration, the gate enchantment doesn't even have to be a constant effect. A daily item would be fine, although you might want it to have more than one activation per day if you think there's a significant chance of more than one attempt per day. (Otherwise you might need to keep the gate closed for the rest of the day after it gets triggered.)

The only real limited factor here should be the expense and time of setting up the protections.

Ha!!! LOVE IT. Just enchant the doorframe!! Nice one!! Simple and elegant.

Though I dunno if for sure if Waiting Phantasm would work though ..... the triggers are a) time period (N/A), b) specificed movement (N/A as can't be seen), c) sounds (if someone is silent no good), d) smell (I think this could be only trigger) or e) specific tastes (N/A).

Smell I guess ... maybe but that could be fraught with issues.

But excellent call on the doorframe!

Thanks too for answering the specific question I asked. 

And I just remembered that there's a download here in the TinyPortal Shadow World section that has Warding spells that are very appropriate to what you're trying to do.

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?action=tportal;sa=download;dl=item935

Excellent! Yes this seems to be exactly what I was after thanks. I have a lot/most of the RM books but I don't recognise this list. Which publication is it from please?

Thanks again.

[jdale]

Though I dunno if for sure if Waiting Phantasm would work though ..... the triggers are a) time period (N/A), b) specificed movement (N/A as can't be seen), c) sounds (if someone is silent no good), d) smell (I think this could be only trigger) or e) specific tastes (N/A).

Smell I guess ... maybe but that could be fraught with issues.

The RMSS version says:

The caster can choose one of the following: a) time period, b) specified movement, c) specified sound, d) specified touch, e) specified smell, f) specified taste, g) specified Presence spell cast within the area of effect. If a sense is used to trigger the spell, that sense must be included within the illusion.

I infer that "specified movement" refers to sight, since all the other senses are listed explicitly. What you really want is detection of that Presence without matching sight. That's two conditions though, rather than one. I would probably allow it with spell mastery, could consider making it cost an additional option.

[Spectre771]

For passive defense, I've always used Runes, Glyphs, and Wards.  Glyphs are great because they are meant to be used on non-solid material like water or air.  Runes are great because the PCs must touch the correct ones or get zapped/fried/frozen.  Wards are the ones every party remembers to look for, but no one ever looks for glyphs.  I put a glyph in a puddle of water and the party stepped into it and took shock crits.

One of my favorite traps I set my payers against was a sloped hallway covered in a fine layer of elemental ice.  They fell, then slid down the hallway to an opening in the floor where a Stun glyph was active.  They had no chance to react or to avoid the glyph, took a stun and couldn't break their fall or perform an action so they hit the floor and took Fall/Krush damage.

... all because no one in the party decided to roll "Detect Traps."

[cdcooley]

The Warding spell lists were originally in the Shadow World Master Atlas Addendum from 1990. They were republished along with the Loremaster and Navigator lists in the second edition atlas in 1992. Terry left all of them out of the third edition in 2001 (and later the fourth edition) but uploaded them here instead after a few of us commented/complained.

The higher level Phantasm (and other illusion spells) allow adding multiple senses and extending the spells in other ways. General alchemy rules also allow for refining and adding aspects to the enchantments that aren't part of the standard spell system. So if you're having an alchemist build your defenses using illusionist spells for the enchantment it's perfectly reasonable to go for sensible variations like the spell using both smell and Presence for detection or even treating the detect invisible as one of the Phantasm's effects in place of the traditional sound, smell, etc.

[Jengada]

A number of the ideas have talked about using Wards or the like, and run into questions (like a Ward of Detect Invisible and the concentration issue.) When RCI first presented Wards, I had similar issues. I ended up deciding that any informational spell that conveyed knowledge to a caster's mind, or any spell that required concentration, could not be placed in a Ward. The Ward has a presence, and maybe you can argue it goes to that presence, but so what? Maybe, if you wanted to, you could argue that if the caster is within range of the spell, the scrap of the caster's presence left in the Ward connects back to their full presence, and they learn the info. But what if they're mid-spell at the time, do they get interrupted?

The presence aspect of Wards also makes them relatively easy to spot, since the Presence  spell is free and low level for some professions. One 3rd level mentalist can detect any Wards for free.
I didn't see any mention in the list of what counter-measures an expected intruder might have available. That would make a big difference in what measures are worthless, or worthwhile. Nor was there any discussion of using scrying like Past Visions to track intruders/criminals. Mentalism Companion had a wealth of information on scrying and counter-scrying measures, might be worth a look.

[C.Tozer]

Though I dunno if for sure if Waiting Phantasm would work though ..... the triggers are a) time period (N/A), b) specificed movement (N/A as can't be seen), c) sounds (if someone is silent no good), d) smell (I think this could be only trigger) or e) specific tastes (N/A).

Smell I guess ... maybe but that could be fraught with issues.

The RMSS version says:

The caster can choose one of the following: a) time period, b) specified movement, c) specified sound, d) specified touch, e) specified smell, f) specified taste, g) specified Presence spell cast within the area of effect. If a sense is used to trigger the spell, that sense must be included within the illusion.

I infer that "specified movement" refers to sight, since all the other senses are listed explicitly. What you really want is detection of that Presence without matching sight. That's two conditions though, rather than one. I would probably allow it with spell mastery, could consider making it cost an additional option.

Nice and yes that makes sense - I mainly use RM Classic by the way, Thanks Jdale

[C.Tozer]

For passive defense, I've always used Runes, Glyphs, and Wards.  Glyphs are great because they are meant to be used on non-solid material like water or air.  Runes are great because the PCs must touch the correct ones or get zapped/fried/frozen.  Wards are the ones every party remembers to look for, but no one ever looks for glyphs.  I put a glyph in a puddle of water and the party stepped into it and took shock crits.

One of my favorite traps I set my payers against was a sloped hallway covered in a fine layer of elemental ice.  They fell, then slid down the hallway to an opening in the floor where a Stun glyph was active.  They had no chance to react or to avoid the glyph, took a stun and couldn't break their fall or perform an action so they hit the floor and took Fall/Krush damage.

... all because no one in the party decided to roll "Detect Traps."

Nice! Like it and very, very sneaky!

[C.Tozer]

The Warding spell lists were originally in the Shadow World Master Atlas Addendum from 1990. They were republished along with the Loremaster and Navigator lists in the second edition atlas in 1992. Terry left all of them out of the third edition in 2001 (and later the fourth edition) but uploaded them here instead after a few of us commented/complained.

The higher level Phantasm (and other illusion spells) allow adding multiple senses and extending the spells in other ways. General alchemy rules also allow for refining and adding aspects to the enchantments that aren't part of the standard spell system. So if you're having an alchemist build your defenses using illusionist spells for the enchantment it's perfectly reasonable to go for sensible variations like the spell using both smell and Presence for detection or even treating the detect invisible as one of the Phantasm's effects in place of the traditional sound, smell, etc.

Nice one thanks - I do own the Shadow World Master Atlas Addendum I believe but clearly haven't looked at it for a long time.

Yep good point on the  Phantasm (and other illusion spells) comment thank you.

[C.Tozer]

A number of the ideas have talked about using Wards or the like, and run into questions (like a Ward of Detect Invisible and the concentration issue.) When RCI first presented Wards, I had similar issues. I ended up deciding that any informational spell that conveyed knowledge to a caster's mind, or any spell that required concentration, could not be placed in a Ward. The Ward has a presence, and maybe you can argue it goes to that presence, but so what? Maybe, if you wanted to, you could argue that if the caster is within range of the spell, the scrap of the caster's presence left in the Ward connects back to their full presence, and they learn the info. But what if they're mid-spell at the time, do they get interrupted?

The presence aspect of Wards also makes them relatively easy to spot, since the Presence  spell is free and low level for some professions. One 3rd level mentalist can detect any Wards for free.
I didn't see any mention in the list of what counter-measures an expected intruder might have available. That would make a big difference in what measures are worthless, or worthwhile. Nor was there any discussion of using scrying like Past Visions to track intruders/criminals. Mentalism Companion had a wealth of information on scrying and counter-scrying measures, might be worth a look.

Thanks for the comments Jengada. Its sounds like you and I were expecting to see things in the core Spell Law Rules that would neatly cover the concept of a room/gate/area being "magically protected" nor what counter-measures could be taken as you mention.

Thanks for the suggestion of Mentalism Companion - I'll check it out.