Topic: Priests Arnak?

[DonMoody]

This is an interesting POV of education.
But I think it is too founded in an Earth-type basis.
That is, a basis that does not include non-mundane forces.

You want to know about the Wars of Dominion, an event that happened over six thousand years ago?
Ask a priest of Cay (amongst others).
Since Cay was there, any priest of Cay with the ability to ask his god can get information (at least from Cay's perspective, but likely from a wider one) about that 'mythical time'.

While I agree with some of what Elrik posts, IMO, too much of it is based upon our (Earth's) 'no definitive sources' aspect.

In a world where 'proof of gods' is readily available (i.e. blind faith is not required because you can easily see - on a daily basis - the actually workings of a variety of gods) and where (if not 'omnipotent') numerous similar such 'long lived, well informed' entities are available *and can be [to varying degrees of difficulty] contacted & conversed with*, the retention of accurate knowledge is much more likely (if not, in fact, a given).

Sure, there will be some myths and stories which arise but there will be many more which accurately portray events of the past.


For example, for most of humanity's existence, there has been positive linguistic drift (i.e. languages have tended to diverge and increase over time).
However, we are currently in an [unprecedented?] era of negative linguistic drift (i.e. languages are decreasing and [re]converging).
There are a variety of factors which contribute to the current situation, not the least of which is speed of communication and transport.

DonMoody

[Elrik]

--- although it was not my intention to come off snotty, I do like what I posted, just not the tone. Sorry Don.

You want to know about the Wars of Dominion, an event that happened over six thousand years ago?
Ask a priest of Cay (amongst others).
Since Cay was there, any priest of Cay with the ability to ask his god can get information (at least from Cay's perspective, but likely from a wider one) about that 'mythical time'.

I just don't think Cay would answer. Eventually he would be fielding questions related to "That girl I met last night, can you give me her number?" If it was that easy as to make a small sacrifice and ask an important question, why are there no laws outlawing Arnak and their dastardly order? Why has the Emperor not setup a task force to explore and deal with the Dark Order? Why didn't the People turn to Cay and ask "Who is the real Emperor?" That would have solved everything. Because the Gods don't answer those questions, for the masses at least. I think if Don the Cleric had a mission and needed that information, it would be given. 

The People of The Shadow World must take some responsibility for their lives. Their History, education and willingness to share information are part of it..

Just because We see that God, hear that God, witness the Powers of that God, does not mean you believe in or trust that God. A better educated society tends to view itself as enlightened. Sure Gods exist, but we don't need them. The common folk that live across the land are looking for help, and if Joe Arnak comes along and gives it, they will give him faith, at least lip service. Faith is fickle.

Now in that vain, Griffin College... their head mistress is from before the War of Dominion. She knows the faces of the Darkness? Does she teach her students about the Unlife? To face the Priests Arnak and when possible destroy them? Has the College trained multiple generations to fend against the Unlife and it's orders? I doubt it. Not everyone can handle that information. It would scare the hell out of me.

Student Adviser: "Ummm Yea, you see Elrik, there is this Massive Unknown Force that wants to gobble you up. But not you as a form, more like the Force that is you. You know, your Essence. it has these servants called the Priest Arnaks, they are everywhere and maybe even in the Royal Court. Hell your Mom could be a follower..."

Elrik: "Yea right."

Student Adviser: "No. sadly, I am deadly serous."

Elrik: "So I can't trust anyone I have ever met, everything I have been told could be a lie and I am doomed to live a life of loneliness or surrender and become an evil scumbag...twitch twitch"

Now in my game I have never given the Emperor an Old trust worthy Elf to ask questions of. Why are there no Guilds of Seers who tell people the Past? Why do the Elven Forests residence keep their secrets from us?

I think at this point we are at a difference of GMing - In a Real World situation, If I had access to a divine resource I would be at his/her door waiting for an answer. But since this is a Game World, answers are not going to come that easily. That would take all the fun out of the game too.

[metallion]

Some dialogs...

Adventurer, "Hey, Priest, could you ask your God to tell me about the Wars of Dominion?"

Answer A:  Could you be more specific?
Answer B:  It'll cost you.
Answer C:  I'm not powerful enough to get a meaningful answer.
Answer D:  Cay doesn't want to talk about that right now.
Answer E:  Oh, thanks!  Now that we know there's something called Priests Arnak, Cay warns me that something nasty's coming to kill us both!  With friends like you, who needs proctologists?!?
Answer F:  Sorry, dude, I got nothing.  Here's a refund.  (Plants tracking token in the coins and sends word to his fellow Priests there's someone asking questions that needs to be taken down.)

Jerrin Faslurin:  So, Randae, what really happened during the War of Dominion?
Randae Answer A:  Um... how much time do you have?
Randae Answer B:  You don't want to know.  No, really.  This is me, when I say you can't handle the truth, you can't handle the truth.
Randae Answer C:  I read about it a while back... but it's slipping my mind.  Damn elven memory...
Randae Answer D:  My grandfather got his brains eaten by a big nasty monster called a Shard.  Thank you ever so much for reminding me.

[DonMoody]

I just don't think Cay would answer.

Opinions vary.
A god not answering reasonable questions from his followers is not mine.

If it was that easy as to make a small sacrifice and ask an important question, ...

Who said anything about 'making a simple sacrifice'?
I was (and am) referring to the spells that specifically say such things as:
"Caster receives (usually from his patron deity) a "yes" or "no" answer to a question on a single topic."

That is, in the case of 'asking a god', I am referring to a spell user using the spells that allow such information gathering; i.e. the individual that is asking the questions is the one directly getting the answers (none of this "my sister has a friend who knows a guy whose cousin once heard that ..." type stuff; and none of the HS type 'Hey Joe, can you ask Mary if ..." stuff either).

There are numerous other such spells that allow one to directly gather information [themselves] relatively easily, and from a variety of sources (i.e. just not 'patron deity' or 'otherworldly servants of patron deity').

A better educated society tends to view itself as enlightened. Sure Gods exist, but we don't need them.

This is also an Earth oriented answer.
On Earth, yes the educated say 'we do not need that mumbo jumbo'.
But in a place where 'that mumbo jumbo' is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is, in fact, real power (look at the powers a channeling spell user can get), the educated (and powerful) do not say:
"Sure Gods exist, but we don't need them."

What they say instead is something more like:
"Even the powerful need friends in high places."

or they say:
"Even the powerful must respect the gods."

or they say:
"I need to get a piece of that!"

or they say:
"Even the lowly are not afraid when they have the power of a god with them."

As for all of those 'what if' questions, that strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.
That is, that what has happened is different from what those questions imply should have happened prove nothing - IMO, all they really do is muddy the waters.
'Oh, those are not real gods. If they were real gods they would not let Uncle Joe suffer like that.'
IMO, a nonsensical POV.


Similarly:

Faith is fickle.

Another Earth-centric comment.

Yes, perhaps, maybe, there might, somewhere, be a few that willy-nilly switch from one religion to another.
But, again, that is more characteristic of the modern times of this world (Earth) where one cannot go to the local church and see on a daily basis actual, indisputable 'god power' at work (and where, today, one does not get killed for being a pagan, heathen or heretic; i.e. where one does not get killed for openly disagreeing with the local religion - although that does happen in this day and age here on Earth).
Religious pluralism has happened throughout Earth's history but it was seldom the rule and even when other religions were tolerated, they were often persecuted or otherwise had sever limits placed on them by society.

Yeah, there are some non-channeling spell users who may try to 'prove' this claim or that claim by using their magic.
But those are the exception, not the rule.

Even in this world (Earth), where there are no blatant, god-given powers that can be repeatedly and routinely demonstrated under any circumstances, religious organizations throughout history made a very concerted and deliberate effort to hold on to their power.
They punish, exile, and even kill those who speak out against their religion and do worse to those who try and switch to (or start) another religion.
And that is here (on Earth), where they have nothing but words and the might of arms to do that.

Now imagine a world like Kulthea where the church has real power, where casting spells like 'Stunning' only require a 5th level follower.
If the religions on Kulthea were anything like those on Earth (perhaps not a valid assertion), and you know how Earth's religions have (for most of Earth's history) dealt with 'unbelievers', just how do you think the religions of Kulthea would deal with such individuals?


As for some of those questions, (e.g. Why didn't the People turn to Cay and ask "Who is the real Emperor?"), the deity they question may not have an answer ("I really don't care who is emperor - real or otherwise"), or a straight answer ("It is whoever you want it to be") or may not be able to give a direct answer (imagine Cay, Kuor and Phaon all backing different heirs to the throne - would they fight amongst themselves? would they force their followers to fight it out? or would they 'agree to disagree' and let actions take whatever course they take with little, if any, involvement by them? just how they agreed to work out their differences would heavily influence the answer given).


Yes - it seems we have a large difference of opinion.
IMO, you are basing 'what is what' on an Earth model, which is an unsound model for Kulthea (in part for the reasons I have outlined above; though there are many other reasons; e.g. long lived individuals are routine on Kulthea and non-existent on Earth; e.g. see below for a time line comparison).

On Kulthea, it can be very easy to find answers to 'questions of the ages' (a separate thread could be started listing all the myriad ways).
On Earth, it can be very difficult to find definitive answer to any question whose answer is based in events of a few hundred years ago, let alone a few thousand years ago.

Comparing current Earth time (21st century) to 'current' Kulthea time (c. 6050s Third Era):
- on Earth, written language developed *well after* the end of the Wars of Dominion
- on Earth, wide-spread domestication of animals would have happened *during* the Second Era (and initial domestication only *slightly* before the start of the Second Era)
- on Earth, cultivation (i.e. agriculture) may not even date back to *before* the start of the Second Era
- etc. etc.


Earth to Kulthea is a very tempting 'apples to pears' comparison - one could easily imagine lots of similarities and generally look past the [minor?] differences.
But it is more like a 'lemonade to motor oil' comparison - yeah, they are both liquids but one must be very, very careful beyond that.

DonMoody

P.S. And no, I do not think a god answering reasonable questions from his followers who use the spells that allow them to petition for such answers is problematic in any way.
Not in the way the myriad questions implied.
And certainly not in any way make the game less fun (i.e. in my opinion, the view of "That would take all the fun out of the game too" is at best hyperbole).

[munchy]

I don't really lik to resort to source material that much. I usually come up with my own stuff or have them appear in disguise a lot which makes regalia unnecessary for the moment.
As the high-priest of Yarthraak was the first one we encountered we usually go for something bluish in colour. However, apart from him they haven't played that big a role in our campaigns yet. The sisterhood of the silver dawn has been more active.

[Elrik]

Gods aren't Encyclopedias. There are resources that people can use. If they want it bad enough they will find them. I think a God would tell you what book to look for or where to go.

What is the difference between asking Cay for the History of the War and asking "Who has more right to wear the Phoenix Crown?" (Question was revised from previous post.)

Who said anything about 'making a simple sacrifice'?
Ummm I did...usually you ask a question, there has to be an exchange.

A better educated society tends to view itself as enlightened. Sure Gods exist, but we don't need them.
I will hold on to this one. Earth or not, it is just as much a Human condition as any other. But maybe I didn't explain myself well... Well educated Nobles tend to think themselves Enlightened. The poor are a different story, they also lack the education, legal support and soldiers to resist the oppression of religions. Then again, as we seem to agree, the Poor do need whatever help they can get.

"Oh, those are not real gods. If they were real gods they would not let Uncle Joe suffer like that."
Not every healer/priest can heal everything. Sometimes good people die, good people die all the time - Damn those gods for letting it happen. I am pretty confident that that is as much a Shadow World thing as it an Earth thing. But I think we agree on that one.

"Faith is fickle."
No, this is a reality. But I will admit that I probably generalized it to much. I have done some pretty horrible things with the Church of Orhan, but over all I don't push it to hard. I am confident that if a constant visitor comes and makes the lives of some farmers/fishermen/woodmen easier then they will start to refocus their ideals. This is a human condition, we instinctively align with what we perceive as the stronger. Intellectually we can override this of course.

Question: How many confrontations between faiths have you had? I have done a few of these while players where present. If it is a PC I would run the battle, debate, challenge. If it was between NPC's I would roll on the spot, unless I know one is more powerful then the other. In that village the Winner gets the faithful. I had one game where the Dark Priest of Charon went over board and killed the Priestess of the Party. The Villagers stoned him and ran him out of town.  He waited two weeks for the party to leave and came in with his messengers. Razed the village.

Then again, maybe I don't run my Faithful enough. How often do you guys have your (Orhan) Clerics and Monks wondering the roads to visit villages, teach and raise up spirits?

I am confident with my education angle, but the religion part I am out of practise with and will admit to being out of date with. In the past I have had PC's tap their god for everything. So I pulled them back and never saw a reason to change. Although I run a game where the divine is in the details, I will try your angle a bit Don and give my PC's a bit more contact... just a bit. (and no I am not accusing you of giving up the farm I just think you are a bit more giving then I am.)

But that does lead me to ask: How often do your Orhan and Charon priest wonder the country side. How many times a year do you guys have them do a circuit?

Thanks for you input Don.

[DonMoody]

What is the difference between asking Cay for the History of the War and asking "Who has more right to wear the Phoenix Crown?" (Question was revised from previous post.)

Cay knows what happened in the Wars of Dominion (at the very least, he knows what he did and what he saw).

Cay may not know "Who has more right to wear the Phoenix Crown?".
Cay may not even care.
Cay might even have a different view on the proper answer than his fellow Orhan inhabitants but because of their different views but general 'we work together' concept have made a non-interference agreement (or some such deal with the gods of Orhan).

One view would be that the difference between those questions is basically the difference between asking for a fact ("Did you fight Scalu during the Wars of Dominion?") and asking for an opinion ("How do you feel about chocolate?").

And I don't remember anyone stating (or implying) that the gods are encyclopedias.

Certainly, any god that allows his follower to learn a spell like Commune I (Cleric base list) must certainly expect the follower to use that spell.
And, last I checked, outside of house rules, you simply cast that spell (i.e. outside of the standard 'I am a follower of ? ?' and all that such entails [which might very well include periodic sacrifices], there is no 'make a sacrifice' requirement for using most channeling spells).


I also do not understand what you mean by:

Earth or not, it is just as much a Human condition as any other.

On Earth, it is natural for 'enlightened' or 'educated' humans to poo-poo things such as this:
'Those powers/beings/whatever you claim exist but expect us to take that on blind faith because you cannot demonstrate it'

On Kulthea (like on Earth), it is not natural - certainly it not a universal human condition - that when one demonstrates power, humans eschew it.
'Here is a gun. It will give you power.'
How many societies (not matter how 'educated' or 'enlightened'), when shown the mundane power of firearms said "We don't need them"[very, very few].
How many societies (not matter how 'educated' or 'enlightened'), when shown the mundane power of firearms said "We have got to get us some of those" [almost *everyone* of them - even those who viewed such weapons as 'dishonourable'].

The same holds for power from the gods.

If your claim had been that grasping power was "as much a Human condition as any other", you would have been spot on.
But your claim is almost the exact opposite.
'Those gods, they can give us power - but we are an educated, enlightened group and will say "we don't need them".'
That goes against the vast majority of documented history of the 'human condition'.

Damn those gods for letting it happen. I am pretty confident that that is as much a Shadow World thing as it an Earth thing.

No - damning 'god-like' beings that daily demonstrate their power through the spells they have given their followers is *not* an Earth thing, it is a Kulthea thing.
Yes, damning beings which no one can prove they exist (i.e. beings who no one can show routinely, repeatedly demonstrate their existence through obvious, repeatable powers granted to their followers) *is* an Earth thing.

Here again I feel you are taking an Earth-centric view of Kulthea.
Earth - no gods that daily demonstrate power in a way that cannot be denied
Kulthea - gods that daily demonstrate power in a way that cannot be denied

It is my understanding that, on Kulthea, there are followers of the various gods every where.
This is an aspect Earth & Kulthea share.
The vast majority of humanity on Earth claim to follow some religion or like teachings.
How could it be any less on Kulthea where the gods routinely demonstrate their powers by giving their followers powers which can be repeatedly and consistently used (and not denied)?

Similarly, it is my understanding that, on Kulthea, it is very easy to find people who are single digit levels i.e. 1st through 9th level people are quite common) and it is only levels above that (i.e. double digits) that are more uncommon/rare.
Another aspect Earth & Kulthea share.

As such, in every city, every town, every village, in almost all places, one finds (usually more than one) follower that channels power from their god.


In my opinion, because the gods know what happens when they clash directly, the gods grants powers to their followers and allow their followers to 'fight it out'.
That is, the gods have some unwritten 'no direct interference' rules which they [generally] follow but bend from time to time.
Yes, they all grant their followers powers.
Yes, they all allow their followers to use their powers against each other.
Yes, they try to refrain from directly interfering, or from indirectly participating on a large scale.
And yes, when one of their kind 'escalates' things, the others debate 'just how much do we want to continue the escalation' and then take action based upon what they decide.
And yes, that means that, once in a great long while, one (or more) of them breaks all those unwritten rules and shows up directly - which usually results in others doing the same (and thus we have, during the Wars of Dominion, the gods of Orhan and the gods of Charon - and probably others - being directly involved and even directly fighting each other*).


And one last comment on education:
Remember, for most of recorded history on Earth, education was the purview of religions; i.e. for most of humanity's existence on Earth, organized education was an aspect of the various churches (and still is in many places).
I suspect the same holds true for Kulthea - that the majority of formal education came via the religious organizations and it would be the exception to the rule of a secular school (although, in Third Era c.6050, there are many places where one can get a religious-light or even religious-free education).

DonMoody

* And thus the question:
"Did you [Cay] fight Scalu during the Wars of Dominion?"
is an answer to which one will likely get a 'Yes' answer using some of the spells referred to in this thread.

[DonMoody]

Deleted Duplicate post.

[Elrik]

Actually metallion sort of nails it on the head for me.

And I don't remember anyone stating (or implying) that the gods are encyclopedias.
This was attached to a short story of a Player that drove me up the wall. Every few minutes he was asking for a pizza, what to do about the bad guys, should he sleep with that woman... He was the final straw. I used to run the Gods a fair bit more active and I just got tired of it. I reeducated my Players and pulled the gods right back. The story got edited. I am a bit scattered so my arguments are way off focus.

Earth or not, it is just as much a Human condition as any other.
I meant that people have a tendency to think more of themselves the more they think they know. At least that has been my experience.

I live in northern Ontario. There are 3 times more guns here then humans. Everyone of my buddies that got their first rifle, suddenly where stronger, meaner, better in bed and had larger genitalia. From what I have read, that hasn't changed all that much from the first rifle. Once everyone had a gun, the attitude pretty much turned back to normal.

Would that imply that powerful people try to keep powerful Channellers in their stables? Not in a weapons locker but in a private temple. Closer to a powerful Priest, Closer to God.

In our history, teaches where often Monks, who would teach via the bible. Others where Jews, who where actually more learned and had a more Worldly view. As it was explained to me, it is a religious demand that Jews learned to read and write. There are also stories of Arabs (how is that for a generalization) teaching young Christan their own religion. There are records of educators as early as 3000BC. In the Middle Ages, wealthy people would hire Tutors - religious and otherwise to learn from. Rome had schools - Greece had gatherings and schools. Finding a teach was not always the pleasure of the wealthy or the Religious.

In Jaiman education is the playground of the wealthy. Anyone else would have to join something to get an education. I think in that day and age their are agencies that provide tutors for those that can pay. I have had adventurers pay to be educated in how to read and write, while sitting in a tavern no less. I can only imagine what can be lost in 6000 years. There has been Culture in Western Europe for Thousands of years, and look how much we lost. Through out that history there has been one culture that dominates another, and things get lost. In Jaiman, one culture has dominated another and things have been lost. 

How do you keep people aware of the Iron Wind when no one has faced it in thousands of years? It becomes Legend. Thank the Powers for Libraries. Rakhaans age makes it more then likely to be able to maintain history. Nomikos is not accessible to all. Priests and teachers don't always know, nor do they think to ask questions. Still, you read a book from 6000 years ago and it talks about forces that have not been heard of in 6000 years... and elves that are that old are not just standing around waiting for someone to ask them questions. And to make it worse, some 2000 year old elves may not know more about he Unlife then a 20 year old Human. Again, the elves that know are not waiting for mortals to play 20 questions, they usually have a job to do. Information is not easy to come by, but I do think it is out there.

In our history, no matter what time, a great many people believed in their Gods. In their minds, Their God was in everything. He/She/It was everywhere. Many still feel the same way today. Unlike me, these people had/have no doubts in their God. They fear/love/grovel at their god, same as the Shadow Worlds. Egyptians, Greeks, Israelites and the Summarians practised a magic directly related to their Gods. In my games I am more Greek then Middle Ages with the Gods, communication is more Oracle (deep meditation with the human/elf/being trying to deal with the power of their Gods contact, the message often gets garbled) then a Priest asking a god and getting an answer. 

Faith in the Shadow World and Earth is exactly the same. People believe in their God, see the every day Miracles of their God. Just because you can't prove Earths God's existence does change a persons faith. A Shadow World Fanatic is just as Fanatical as one of Earths. A Roman that daily honoured his God was just as faithful as any of the Shadow World Faithful. Just because a Roman/Greek Priest didn't have the power that a Shadow World Priest does, does not diminish their power. Their word was Power, their people value them. The only difference is that One was Real, and another is a Fantasy. And the Fantasy gets unique Power from their God. Even when the faithful get angry they question things, especially when they know the Gods have the power to save a life.

I still think that nobles will hold more faith in their own Power then their Gods, even when that God is Blatant and Obvious. I also don't think it took the Nobles a few years to think this way. For thousands of years the Laan have been buying into their own hype. So My argument is probably flawed because I tend to focus on Jaiman. Nobles in Sel Kay probably don't buy into their own Hype. Even with an excellent education, I still get the impression they are a faithful people over all.     

In my game, different people react differently to death. Some can't understand why the Gods would let it happen, others happy that their child was taken by God, or both. Sometimes they don't understand why With so much Power, a God lets a child die.

I will have to do some searching to find the links about ancient education.

[Walt]

Now throwing mud at my own theory...

I did only read the two posts of Elric and Don after mine, scanning through the long others.
I ask my questions out of the reason that I like to listen and to learn, to point out all the the shortcomings of the Shadow World concept (and their are a lot) and to find possible and plausible solutions and explanations.

That?s why I don?t care for canon or non-canon at all, that?s why I would never throw mud on any theory and that?s why for me it?s not about "different opinions" in the sense to convince somebody of my opinion, it?s much more about hearing different opinions.
The convincing discussions will never work and are fruitless, because everybody will have his own interpretation of Shadow World. And from all I can learn.

[Walt]

How do you keep people aware of the Iron Wind when no one has faced it in thousands of years? It becomes Legend. Thank the Powers for Libraries. Rakhaans age makes it more then likely to be able to maintain history. Nomikos is not accessible to all. Priests and teachers don't always know, nor do they think to ask questions. Still, you read a book from 6000 years ago and it talks about forces that have not been heard of in 6000 years... and elves that are that old are not just standing around waiting for someone to ask them questions. And to make it worse, some 2000 year old elves may not know more about he Unlife then a 20 year old Human. Again, the elves that know are not waiting for mortals to play 20 questions, they usually have a job to do. Information is not easy to come by, but I do think it is out there.

I?m trying to focus once more on the educational aspect, the "Kingdom Spy agencies + Emperor + Nobles that need to know" aspect. (For the God aspect I open a new thread). And once more the question: what would happen in a society if nobles would be fully aware of the Iron Wind/Unlife and it?s purpose and how would the kingdoms react if they would know about the 6 cults trying to bring the downfall of civilisation in Jaiman?
We all know that there are persons and organisation (Nomikos, the Loremasters, the Gods, 10000 year old elves) which could inform everybody about the Unlife. And perhabs about the Priests Arnak.
(I think Elric posted the brilliant example of the all-knowing Loremaster stumbling into some court meeting and telling them "6 cults, high-priests, serving the unlife, located in.." I don?t want to go to much into my personal game, but one example-in my campaign the Loremaster journeyman doesn?t know that the Unlife exists, what the Priests Arnak are etc - but please, let us for the moment not go into the Loremaster discussion)

For me it?s of much more sigficance at this point in the discussion what would happen if it would be known by the governing parties, the or some nobles and/or the local population that there is Unlife, promoting the end of all, and that there are some hidden cults working towards this goal.
Elric summarized it nicely "your mom could be a follower..."

I have the strong feeling that such knowledge would bring down better civilisation than any methods the Priest Arnak could use. How paranoid would the society become? Our real world witch-tracing would be a children's birthday party in comparison. In my opinion it?s one of the Loremasters goals to deny to nearly all people the existence of the Unlife!
But I don?t want to go on with my own conclusions, what?s your opinion? How would the society look like if it would be proper knowledge that the Unlife is existing? How would nations work together? Or going in a bloody crusade against each other?

[DonMoody]

A Shadow World Fanatic is just as Fanatical as one of Earths.

Right - but the Earth fanatic has nothing more than spittle and the physical might of those that follow him whereas the Kulthean fanatic has actual divine power (stun is a 5th level spell for a channeler).

On Earth you can say 'that fanatic is delusional - what he believes is a falsehood'.
On Kulthea, where the fanatic is able to physically manifest the power of his god and demonstrate that for all to see (or be affected by), it isn't so easy to say 'there is only delusion behind that fanatic'.

As for education and religious tolerance ...
When Europe was killing or seriously limiting non-christians, other parts of the world (e.g. the Muslim world) were very religious tolerant.
Similarly, after the fall of the Roman Empire, it wasn't Europe that avoided a dark age and retained the knowledge of the empire.

And yes, there has been a lot of information lost on Earth in a shorter than than either the Second or Third Age of Kulthea.
But on Earth, unlike Kulthea, there is:
- no one that lives for much more than a century
- no deity one can petition with the powers the deity granted and get a straight 'yes' or 'no' answer (or even a more detailed answer if you are a higher level)

The reason we [the Earth] are in a negative language drift is because of increased exposure.
Similarly, I would expect Kulthea to experience a much lower rate of information loss than the Earth of pre-19th century because there are [very] long-lived individuals and because there are many who have access to definitive answers about the past.

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

And once more the question: what would happen in a society if nobles would be fully aware of the Iron Wind/Unlife and it?s purpose and how would the kingdoms react if they would know about the 6 cults trying to bring the downfall of civilisation in Jaiman?

What would happen in a society that knew there were organized forces/kingdoms that were actively seeking weapons of mass destruction?
What if one of these 'evil forces' were already known to have such a weapon?
And were likely teaching other 'questionable' entities how to develop their own like weapons?

Sound familiar?
It should - it is the current situation with the West, Iran and Korea.
And what is happening there?


In a gross generality, it comes back to the classic:
Bread and Circuses
Keep the masses sufficiently fed and sufficiently entertained and those in power can do what they want.

Similarly, if the masses are sufficiently fed and sufficiently entertained, it is difficult to get them to be concerned (let alone act against) the threat or danger that is out there.

Global warming?
I don't know - I'm well fed and well entertained, is it really that bad?

Iran is trying to get The Bomb?
Korea has The Bomb?
Korea might be helping Syria to get The Bomb?
I don't know - I'm well fed and well entertained, is it really that bad?

[add in your own portent of doom and destruction]
I don't know - I'm well fed and well entertained, is it really that bad?

Yes, any populace is only 9 [missed] meals away from a revolution.
But the other side of that coin is:
Any populace that is certain they will be fed and entertained for the next three days and feel very confident about the three days after that, and the three days after that, and ... is very difficult to motivate on a large scale.



"Iron Wind? Priests Arnak? Look, that sounds all very disturbing but I've got this trade delegation from Itanis that I am trying to make an agreement with and the crop yield in the southern provinces was problematic so I've got to do something to prevent wide spread starvation there or they will revolt (you do remember the crop failure of 5809, don't you?) and I'm supposed to be involved in the final preprations of the autumnal equinox celebration and .... Look, it's just not a really good time right now. If they don't have an army that is marching our way, you'll just have to get back to me later this season. Actually, next season would probably be better. ..."

And so it goes.
?It is ever so with the things that men begin:
there is a frost in Spring or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.?

Beware, mortals [i.e. men] are easily distracted and often drawn away from that which needs attention.
And yet ...
?Yet seldom do they fail of their seed.
And that will lie in times and places unlooked for.
The deeds of Men will outlast us."

DonMoody

[Elrik]

Right - but the Earth fanatic has nothing more than spittle and the physical might of those that follow him whereas the Kulthean fanatic has actual divine power (stun is a 5th level spell for a channeler).

Power is Power. Those madmen that only had spittle and faith butchered 10s of thousands of people, and no one could stop them, even their own church had a hard time exerting control.
If they had spells, I think they would have been able to kill more, not better. The Fanatic is still a fanatic and his behaviour will still be the same, what will change is his method.

On Earth you can say 'that fanatic is delusional - what he believes is a falsehood'.

You mean that a Fanatic that has true power can not be delusional? I disagree. With or without the Spell lists he will have an agenda. A Plan of action. His moral code could be askew and his sense of things is like flesh on fire. His Belief is a Virus boiling in his mind. He is still a fanatic.

Would another Christian say ? What he believes is a Falsehood? No, they would say, ?The Devil has him.?

The same goes for Kuthua. When a member of Orhan sees one of their fellows raving, they say ?Charon has him.?

You and I may say Falsehood, but one of his own would not. Just because you and I may not believe, doesn't mean it isn't real to those that do. No, a Christian Priest does not have a spell, but he does have a flock of people that listen to him. They hang on his every word. If you walked in there and said ?What you believe is a Falsehood.? The crowd would charge you and throw you out. OR, the Priest would sit you down and ask you why you think that way. To those followers, he may be as Holy as a Shadow World Priest that has Power.

Also, just because a Priest in Shadow World has Power, doesn't always mean they have "true" faith. If they follow the rituals, and do what is expected of them they can get spells. They may not have spells up to their level, but they can still get them. At least that I how I run it.

Long Lived beings are not the corner stone of a society. We are talking large scale education, not the rare few that care enough to hunt that ancient elf down. To be honest, it would be easier to find that book in Nomikos then to hunt the country for an elf that knows something - but who is to say that elf will help? Most people are happy with what they know, be it wrong or right.

And as for gods, we already agreed, we do it differently.

Walt, I am inclined to agree with some of what Don writes. Unless the Arnak forces where threatening Rahkaan, the empire would keep an eye out as there are other things that demand attention. I would guess there would be a spy or 12 sent out and told to keep an eye on things. Maybe even a party of brave souls to have a good look at the Frontiers. The spys would get some details, about the orders they may meet, but the brave souls would be sent out... ?Have fun storming the Castle!?

I can see some laws being passed to limit their entry and presence, but we know that wouldn't stop them. You have to be careful when you outlaw a religion, people get nervous, especially if they are not of the same ilk as the person/group passing the Laws. 

Tactically speaking, following Arnak into their territory, is a bad bad idea. At least if they come to you, they have to concede some control of position and fortification. The crappy thing is that once Arnak is in your territory... everything they have brought is in your territory... yuk

As always Gents, this is just by 2 bits.

[Walt]

The spys would get some details, about the orders they may meet, but the brave souls would be sent out... ?Have fun storming the Castle!?
[...]
You have to be careful when you outlaw a religion, people get nervous, especially if they are not of the same ilk as the person/group passing the Laws. 

For the second part, to "outlaw a religion" - I personally don?t think of the Priests of Arnak as some religion - perhabs with the interesting exception of the Yarth. Mostly I think of some hidden organisation, deeply embroiled into society.

What I?m much more wondering: what would happen to a society if their is any broad knowledge of such Unlife cults secretly submerged in society. I would imagine a lot of wrong accusations, rioting and neigbour killing people, a bloody self-devoring society, bringing more death, terror and sorrow than the Priests of Arnak could themself. For sure the Loremaster won?t promote such a scenario.
The other questions which arises: how would the spies acquire the knowledge about the branchs of Arnak? And what information could he possibly obtain?

[Elrik]

A religion is a set of tenets and practises, often centred upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practises related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

By definition the Orders of Arnak are a Religion. But they are a Hidden society, hiding in plane sight.

IF People KNEW, with out a shred of a doubt, that an Order or the entire brigade of Arnak was evil, they had evidence, it would be cut an dried... but when does that happen?

Just go back to the witch hunts. A group(s) would step forward claiming they Know! They will have raided some black smithy and show the people their tools. Some would use magic and only the people that had magic would know the truth. These Proponents of Kind or PK would be a group of knee jerk jerks that revel in their new found power, bath in the glow of their Holy duty and pretty much do horrible things in the name of Faith and Order!

Then, when they where certain that they had done their job, guys like you and me and Don would rounded up and they would do simple yet horrible things to us, while never asking a question, I would presume we are to find Faith while in that time of agony. Faith through misery. It has worked before.

That is a good question Dood. I think a spy would have to do what they do. Watching, from different angles, asking people questions, sneaking into locations. Stealing papers, maps, diagrams and cake. I don't think these orders keep notes about each other, per say, maybe diaries, log books regarding shipments, but actual movements and numbers, I would bet very few beings know how many Messengers there are. Only certain Messengers probably know. Even the Order Leaders may not actually know. A bit of Sun Tzu right there my friend.

I doubt you would find any plans or strategy on paper. The strange connection that links them all seems to allow them to coordinate. They in turn contact their servants via mental commands. You would have to monitor them, a good vantage point, a general idea on the region and a way to contact your handler quickly.

[Walt]

Then, when they where certain that they had done their job, guys like you and me and Don would rounded up and they would do simple yet horrible things to us, while never asking a question, I would presume we are to find Faith while in that time of agony. Faith through misery. It has worked before.

And now think of the time at the end of the second era, the start of the Wars of Dominion. The goverments wrecked, the forces of "Good" seperated by mistrust who is the enemy in the own rows. All the killing which started because the Loremasters mentioned that their are the Priests Arnak.
The Priests can?t create so much havoc than the prejudices against each other created through the knowledge that their are Priest Arnak around.
Let?s assume this thesis for a moment true: what would be your attitude, as Loremaster council, in the third era, trying to redevelop society? Doing the same errors again, promoting the knowledge that the Unlife and the Priest Arnak and what ever is around, in your own society? Giving nobles, kings and farmers the possibility to accuse somebody and to kill him? At least for the Loremasters I don?t think so. I would assume that all the smart organisations like the Loremasters, the Gryphon College and probably Nomikos put this under "forbidden" knowledge, to give society a chance to develop.

That is a good question Dood. I think a spy would have to do what they do. Watching, from different angles, asking people questions, sneaking into locations. Stealing papers, maps, diagrams and cake. I don't think these orders keep notes about each other, per say, maybe diaries, log books regarding shipments, but actual movements and numbers, I would bet very few beings know how many Messengers there are. Only certain Messengers probably know. Even the Order Leaders may not actually know. A bit of Sun Tzu right there my friend.

I doubt you would find any plans or strategy on paper. The strange connection that links them all seems to allow them to coordinate. They in turn contact their servants via mental commands. You would have to monitor them, a good vantage point, a general idea on the region and a way to contact your handler quickly.

And I doubt another thing - I doubt that there is any point to sneak on, to ask questions, to observe. What do you want to observe at a cult of Arnak? There is no organisation behind. It?s not about a state power developing weapons of mass destruction, there are only a few priests with no open ceremonies etc.
I can?t see any point to work on for spies.

[thrud]

You guys are scary.
Some of your arguments almost made a believer out of me.

[Elrik]

Come Thurd, join me over a hot cup of Java. We can discuss your needs, and how import you are to us. (insert gentle, angelic smile)

And I doubt another thing - I doubt that there is any point to sneak on, to ask questions, to observe. What do you want to observe at a cult of Arnak? There is no organisation behind. It?s not about a state power developing weapons of mass destruction, there are only a few priests with no open ceremonies etc.
I can?t see any point to work on for spies.

If I may, another bloody story by Elrik, I never did a spy game so much as, the adventurers travel along the inside of the mountains on the Zori side, heading toward Wuliris to drop off a message for a regent in that area. The players would bob and weave along the mountains, two elf rangers would split up and scout, magically warning the party of any unwanted attention. Then a Dwarf Mountain Ranger would help the party to hide... errr... in the mountains.

It took them over 30 days, from the border to the Regents fortification. In that time they fought numerous Lugroki, 8(?) more trolls, 2 or 3 giants, ambushed 3 small groups of messengers, and hid away from the larger search groups. I even let them find a path to Wuliris, across the mountains. The adventure culminated with the party fighting a priest and his Elite guard. The party realizeing very quickly in the battle that they were not going to win, took flight, peppering the messengers with arrows, killing most of the guard. In that exchange they lost one of the rangers and the mage was poisoned by a dart.  What they gained?

• a general look of the Messengers.
• Dropped off some of their magical equipment
• Tactical order of the messengers - troop structure, possible circuits, emergency response behaviour.
• They learned that the Messengers where almost all North Men, with heavy Laan blood
• The messengers are increadably aggressive, responding to possible threats in large numbers
• The messengers are well trained, their training facility is yet unknown.
• Possible powers of the Lower/Mid level priests
• That the priests, although not having a consistent wardrobe, had the trappings of their order; head dress, belt and so on (I had to give the players something, otherwise they would have started killing anyone that looked suspicious.)
• The Priests had spells, similar to to any other order, and some very cruel ones.
• They learned that Nomads had returned to the region, and did not suffer any ill affects.

They hung out in Wuliris for a while, helping to clean house, but eventually had to leave. Since they where clever adventurers, they had setup teleport locations for the mage, once he was properly healed, and over 3 days they where home.

Sometimes, something is better then pure conjecture and guess work.

My current party is going to be going there once this side adventure is over. They are after something in the mountains and will have to deal with the Messengers.

[DonMoody]

All the killing which started because the Loremasters mentioned that their are the Priests Arnak.

Where is this from?

DonMoody