Topic: Loremaster

[Vince]

if we include mailman, safe houses managers and real magical users Loremasters , around 2 or 3 hundred.

[Walt]

So, if we assume you are right, it would be impossible for the Loremasters to be a secret organisation.
( personally I believe it?s somewhat to high). But let?s stay with the 200 till 300 Loremasters associates for Jaiman.
In this case most would work for the Loremasters without knowing, or? To come back once more to the magic possibilities we should keep in mind that from Lv 10 on a Loremaster knows already the "Safe teleport (10miles/Lv)" and on Lv 20 the "Lord safe Teleport (100miles/Lv)".
Now when keeping this in mind, and realizing once more the Loremasters presented by Terry, there is even the question if there is the necessity for more High Level Loremaster like there are at the moment in Jaiman. And I have the strong feeling the Terry heavily relied on this Teleport spells for information transsfer.
I?m not sure if I get all the known Loremasters in Jaiman together:
Randae in Tanara, Lv 30 - 3000 mile radius
Ren Thraysk, Haalkitaine (and Norek), Lv 30 - 3000 miles radius
Karstia of Mynars (anybody knows where Mynars is located??), Lv 25 - 2500 miles radius
Vena Nascharath, Xa?ar, Lv 27  - 2700 miles radius

And some lesser ones:
Channi Ysanda, Tanara, I think Lv 15, 150 miles radius
Drey Laachek, Meluria, Lv 8 (so much for the Level discussion) Lv 8 is as far as "Powers" is concrned okay for being already a Loremaster! No safe Teleport at all.
Niko Verkano,  Xa?ar, Lv 18: 180 miles radius
Saen Alyster, Rhakhaan, Lv 12, 120 miles radius

So basically, at least if I think correctly, there are some, but not to many, big ones (over Lv 20) on on specific continent. And thy don?t have any problem to Teleport over neraly the whole globe. And some satellites, ranging around Lv ? (~10 to 20), reporting to their "team leaders" for a certain region.

[Walt]

Reviewing all the above thoughts: where in Jaiman would be located key loremasters? Where are the Jaimani Hot-Spots??
One in Tanara (Randae), for sure in Haalkitaine (Ren Thraysk), probably one should be located stationary in Cynar or Vorn. Than there is Vena Nascharath in Xa?ar. So we are missing at least one major Loremaster in Saralis (Elor dosn?t count, he?s retired) Probably none in Quellborne, also none in Lunak. For sure there should be one in Wurliris, there?s too much trouble up there.
I don?t think in Meluria, but perhabs one in Sidar (Plasidar, Dark Elves, Unlife, Kadean,...). Perhaps on in Lethys, for the Southern Rhakhaan Empire.
Other opinions?

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt et al,

I would imagine that the number of actual 'paid up' Loremasters in an area is proportional to the amount of trouble in and the importance of the particular region. I envisage a sort of 'tree' arrangement being in operation, starting from the most Senior Loremaster acting as the trunk.

Certainly, a Senior Loremaster would be permanently attached to the Capital of a particular Realm/Kingdom- and would probably act as the co-ordinator for other Loremasters in their respective areas- additionally, they might well have a Journeyman assistant. This would then give them access to information at the highest levels within the Government.

Under these would be the next most senior Loremasters- with some acting as Mentors to Journeymen. These would probably be spread out amongst the various major cities, with some probably alternating their time between a couple of small cities that are possibly in key strategic areas.

Next would be the travelling Loremasters, who would be infiltrating potentially dangerous areas and probably working undercover a lot of the time. These are the ones that would probably have to be the most careful about using magic except in absolute emergencies- which would almost certainly blow their 'cover'.

Supporting these would be the people who help out- the ones who if perhaps they'd been caught much earlier might have become Loremasters, themselves. Instead, they act as the eyes and ears of the Loremasters on the 'Frontiers'. These probably would be a combination of stealthy professions- Thieves, Burglars, Assassins, Mystics, Nightblades, etc.

As for the Teleport Spell, don't forget that Loremaster's don't have Compasses. They don't get guaranteed Teleports, like the Navigators, across the Flows. (Even a Navigator won't attempt to jump across a powerful Flow at certain times- heck, the whole Navigator organisation 'suspended service' after the Northern Eye was stolen- for thirty days. And, the Flow disturbances are still more frequent than they were previously.)

Obviously, if your campaign is set prior to the Stealing of the Northern Eye, then the Essaence will be more settled- so Teleport Spells will generally be usable. But following the theft- it all literally went to hell and back in a leaky bucket.

I have to admit that I agree with Vinces' assessment of around 2 or 3 hundred people in Jaiman working directly, or indirectly, for the Loremasters. Of these, you would probably get a breakdown of something like:

Senior Loremasters: 1-2%
Loremasters: 5-10%
Journeymen: 10-20%
Support: 68-84%

If we include the documented Loremasters from your list, and for arguments sake say that they only represent a conservative 33% of the actual Loremasters in Jaiman, we get some 24 Loremaster/Senior Loremasters.
Assuming that combined they make up an average 8% of the total, we end up with them being supported by some 300 people (=(100/8%)*24 Loremasters)
Of these it would be fair to assume that 15% or so, of them are Journeymen- so we get around 45 Journeymen and some 250+ 'normal' people who are supporting them.

It would be interesting to see what sort of percentages say the CIA or MI6 have in the field at different 'ranks' and feed the figures through that.

Hope this Helps,

All the Best,

Kevin.

[markc]

 The above discussion reminds me of a sceen in a movie where a congressman asks a member of the CIA "How many people do we have working on helping the Afganistan freedom fighters fight the Soviet Union?" the answer "Me and three other guys."
 I do not remember the name of the flick right now but I know I am going to kick myself whene someone posts it.

MDC

[Walt]

I would imagine that the number of actual 'paid up' Loremasters in an area is proportional to the amount of trouble in and the importance of the particular region. I envisage a sort of 'tree' arrangement being in operation, starting from the most Senior Loremaster acting as the trunk.

Hi Kevin,

basically agreed. Not in total numbers, but in the basic structure.
Their should be stationary Loremasters and Travelling Loremasters.

So where would you (and everybody else) place in Jaiman Senior Loremasters, where are the "Hot Spots"?
(I wrote my personal proposal already above)

Realizing that Level and Senior Loremastership musn?t be concruent, the Level gives at least a hint on the position in the Loremaster hierarchy. I would think that everybody from Lord Level and higher (Lv 20) could be called Senior Loremaster. Thinking of your calculations, there woul be uppermost 2 more Senior Loremasters. If we agree on this, I think one will be placed near the Dragonlords activities, so I would still believe in Wuliris (by the way, was there a Loremaster mentioned there) and the other one in Saralis/U-Lyshak.

Did anybody make up some Loremaster NPCs? It would be very nice to bring them into the discussion!!

Looking once more at your numbers, there would be in addition something between 10 and 30 Loremasters around. Hmm, really? Still 30? Could be, but I think it?s pretty high!!

One thing I disagree: a higher number of Journeymans then Loremasters. Loremasters are longlived. When you think of such a pyramid and add this longlivness, there would be thousands of thousands of newly graduated Loremasters waiting for a job.
Going on in this, the Priest of Arnak would have been a necissity for Shadow World, killing all this unemployed Loremasters. Othervise they would have a deep impact on the economy.
Imagine this: thousands of unemployed Loremasters in Jaiman. Selling there service for real cheap money, being better and cheaper as any sage, scribe or historian. Giving financial suport to questionable governements. Baron Boshkar and his kadre of Loremasters. Navigators getting mad because Loremasters ruin the prices. And and and...
(Probably it would be like today in real-life, with all the consultants...)

[egdcltd]

The above discussion reminds me of a sceen in a movie where a congressman asks a member of the CIA "How many people do we have working on helping the Afganistan freedom fighters fight the Soviet Union?" the answer "Me and three other guys."
 I do not remember the name of the flick right now but I know I am going to kick myself whene someone posts it.

MDC

Charlie Wilson's War

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt,

Yeah, you could be right, with the longevity of the Loremasters in general- that would probably reduce the percentages somewhat for the Loremasters. I still think that there would be a high-ish percentage of people working for the Loremasters- even if only indirectly, though.

As for positioning, I would see the most Senior Loremaster(s) acting as the Controllers- co-ordinating the activities of those 'under their command'. So, they would more likely be somewhere like Rhakhaan/U-Lyshak. Commander-in-chiefs don't often serve on the front-line..... (Pity about that, perhaps we'd have less conflicts if they did?)
They might well have a couple of Journeymen- who are being considered for advancement, under them, to act as messengers- perhaps between Haalkitaine/Lethys, Cynar/Norek, etc.

The more experienced Loremasters would be at various locations in the field, possibly with a Journeyman in tow, scouting potential trouble-spots and collecting reports from the various 'support personnel', that are scattered around- barmen in certain pubs, ladies of 'negotiable affection' at certain brothels, etc.

I'm not 100% sure regarding the actual physical size of Jaiman, it seems to be somewhat larger than the UK and Ireland- but probably has a much lower population density. Currently the UK has a population of about 60.5 million- I certainly wouldn't expect the population of Jaiman to be much more than 2-5% of that.

I've just checked http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/launch_ani_population.shtml
And, for around the years 1068-1348 the UK population was estimated to only be around 3.8 million.

(Terry, any chance of Populations for regions in future works....?)

If we even assume that the population of Jaiman is half that, due to the largish areas that are uninhabited- the Zor Wastes, parts of Lu'nak, etc. This gives us an estimated to population for the whole of Jaiman of only 1.9 Million.

So, our 30 Loremasters is still only 0.00157% of the total population! As for the 300 people working for them, that works out at 10 times that- only 0.0157%. So, the chances of actually running into someone who works for the Loremasters indrectly is about 1 in every 6,333.333 people! So, effectively you could live your whole life in a smallish town, and never actually meet someone involved with the Loremasters. (Although, it would make for a long, boring campaign!)

By way of comparison, 'Jaiman' states that the population of Lethys is about 50,000- and modern Plymouth's population was an estimated 246,100 in 2005. Yet, just over two hundred years previously- in 1801, it was only 38,500.
(Although, we've got a lot lower percentage of Elves over here!)

Hope this makes sense!

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Walt]

[...], ladies of 'negotiable affection' at certain brothels, etc.[...]

[...]
By way of comparison, 'Jaiman' states that the population of Lethys is about 50,000- and modern Plymouth's population was an estimated 246,100 in 2005. Yet, just over two hundred years previously- in 1801, it was only 38,500.
(Although, we've got a lot lower percentage of Elves over here!)
[...]

Thanks for the idea Kevin. I once used as NPC the female owner of a brother ("Blue Rose") in Cynar. I think I will work her out as Loremaster NPC (and somehow it fit?s together with the also "questionable" Lady Carstia. Would you find time to check my ideas once finished?

And I also misread all the years this 50000. I always thought okay, this are the 20% Elves so altogether 250000, that?s big!! But like this Lethys is much smaller.

[markc]

The above discussion reminds me of a sceen in a movie where a congressman asks a member of the CIA "How many people do we have working on helping the Afganistan freedom fighters fight the Soviet Union?" the answer "Me and three other guys."
 I do not remember the name of the flick right now but I know I am going to kick myself whene someone posts it.

MDC

Charlie Wilson's War

 Thanks my brain was just not working yesterday. Or I should say was working overtime on a lot of other things.
MDC

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt,

I just used Plymouth as an example, as it's a port-city, like Lethys.

As for the actual Population in Lethys, I would imagine that the unrest with Frelik and the war in U-Lyshak has pushed the numbers up somewhat, from what is stated in 'Jaiman'; refugees and people trying to get near the dubious protection of a city. So, it's possible that a sort-of tent-town has sprung up outside it's walls, swelling it's numbers. (I'm assuming it's got walls, of course!)

As for sources of information, the 'Ladies' in Brothels might not be told interesting or earth-shaking tit-bits of information that often. But, even information like "'such-and-such' a person has obviously come into some money lately, because they are in much more frequently"- could be useful to the right people. You know the type of thing- where did they get the money, what did they do to actually get it....

In many ways, the Loremasters' operate like a Security Service, sifting information, trying to find the important bits that will lead them to the Servants of the Unlife- or whatever else they are interested in.

Don't forget that the Unlife isn't their primary focus. They are actually interested in all information, so they explore ruins looking for artefacts, books, scrolls; research libraries, both public and private, etc, etc.

Basically, any source of information interests them.

So, they are likely to have 'departments' like the FBI- specialising in different things, archaeology, sciences, criminology, psychology, etc. They could even have the Loremaster equivalents of Mulder and Scully!
Alright maybe I'm being a little silly, with that last bit.

As for the population of Lethys, yeah, the way I read 'Jaiman' is that the city has a population of 50,000, with 20% of that being Elven- 10,000 or so.

But, you say it's much smaller- it's still about 31% larger than the city of Plymouth in 1801! So, it's actually surprising how big Lethys actually is.

Hope this Helps.

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Old Man]

...
As for sources of information, the 'Ladies' in Brothels might not be told interesting or earth-shaking tit-bits of information that often.
...

Freudian slip there eh? 

[kmanktelow]

...
As for sources of information, the 'Ladies' in Brothels might not be told interesting or earth-shaking tit-bits of information that often.
...

Freudian slip there eh? 

Nah, just me being dirty minded!

[Walt]

In many ways, the Loremasters' operate like a Security Service, sifting information, trying to find the important bits that will lead them to the Servants of the Unlife- or whatever else they are interested in.

So, they are likely to have 'departments' like the FBI- specialising in different things, archaeology, sciences, criminology, psychology, etc. They could even have the Loremaster equivalents of Mulder and Scully!
Alright maybe I'm being a little silly, with that last bit.

When I think of the Loremasters, I think always of Star Trek: observe, don?t interfer

And thinking of Ren Thraysk and Randae  and all the other Loremasters described (did you notice that in all the publications there is still not on Loremaster described who sticks to the rules?), so, thinking off all this rebels I can imagine Kirin T?thaan  standing up in every second council meeting, frothing, pissing his robes with his 12000 years old bladder, yelling "YOU MUST NOT INTERFER" ?till his Erlini nurse arrives

[kmanktelow]

In many ways, the Loremasters' operate like a Security Service, sifting information, trying to find the important bits that will lead them to the Servants of the Unlife- or whatever else they are interested in.

So, they are likely to have 'departments' like the FBI- specialising in different things, archaeology, sciences, criminology, psychology, etc. They could even have the Loremaster equivalents of Mulder and Scully!
Alright maybe I'm being a little silly, with that last bit.

When I think of the Loremasters, I think always of Star Trek: observe, don?t interfer

And thinking of Ren Thraysk and Randae  and all the other Loremasters described (did you notice that in all the publications there is still not on Loremaster described who sticks to the rules?), so, thinking off all this rebels I can imagine Kirin T?thaan  standing up in every second council meeting, frothing, ticking his robes with his 12000 years old bladder, yelling "YOU MUST NOT INTERFER" ?till his Erlini nurse arrives

Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!

I assume the Erlin nurse arrives with some form of medication- and perhaps to change his colostomy bag!?!?

(Do you think this is going a little bit silly?)

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Walt]

Okay, let?s go back to the topic.
Seriously, for ages the only Loremasters published by Terry have been rebels. At least in Xa?ar they are getting a little bit "normal". Because of this I was also thinking that probably there is some kind of "Special Unit" in the Loremaster organisation, chasing Trouble makers, probably under the leadership of T?vaar Dekdarion. (and, thinking of this, probably T?vaar Dekdarion and Elor once Dark doesn?t like each other too much. I mustn?t forget this!)

Other question: did you ever think about the coronation ceremonies of Jaiman? I?m not sure, because their are to many timelines around and n conflict with each other, but wasn?t it written somewhere that the imperator of Rhkhaan had to be sanctified by the Loremasters? (I think it was in this case Randae) Because this would be some quite direct exertion of influence by the Loremasters (an for this the change of the colostomy bag of good old Kirin would be clever foresighted)

[Vince]

Kirin T'haan crowned the Emperor and another Loremaster named Dreena Vaal crowned Kier Ianis, but i believe this is because the singularity of attunement of the Crowns in Jaiman. It seems  it has been a tradition , becuase Kirin says he has done a few coronations.

From Shadowstone Chronicles(20ch):

Kirin shot Enistor a disapproving look. ?To answer your question, Birellion, the pendants almost certainly required attunement; and perhaps the swords as well. But the powers of the crowns are different, granted telepathically to the wearer the first time it is donned -- assuming the wearer is the rightful heir to the kingdom, a slippery concept in itself. But at any rate, the powers are conferred by the crown, as well as, undoubtedly, knowledge of any attunement procedure. I discussed the nature of these items with Andraax and Tethior long ago, and have witnessed quite a few coronations, so I know of what I speak.?

[Walt]

Thanks Vince, I knew I read it somewhere.

And now there quite a few new questions:
first of all I assume, that both coronation happend after the powers of the crowns have failed! Othervise Kirin, after their debacle in the Second Era, would never have done this corronation, would he?

Looking back in our European, and in this case, coronations of Kings were done by the Pope (I put it for the argumentation a little bit simple)
And here we are, the 12000 years old CEO of a hidden organisation, promoting "don?t interfer", and ad hoc leading on the ceremony to crown the imperator of the biggest empire, mixing in the middle og high-politics???
And what is the Church of Orhan doing at the same moment? Are they in for a game of Orhan & Charon at the same time??

I knew it puzzled me when I read it, and now, after all the discussion about the "silent" Loremaster organisation I?m quite surprised!

Can anybody give me some explanation on this??

[Witchking20k]

When I think of the Loremasters, I think always of Star Trek: observe, don?t interfere

I'm more of a star wars kinda guys.......bumble your way through doing the right thing..........employ the scruffy (who's scruffy?) rogue and his hairy musclar sidekick............hope to the lord of orhan you find a flaming sword before you face the dark night...........pray again that the beautiful princess you just saved does not turn out to be your sister....

[Walt]

At least the Yedi?s were fine with sitting in a dirty, muddy swamp and didn?t go on an coronating some new bloddy greddy imperator while promoting their "oh sorry, no, we didn?t interfer" propaganda!!
Like I wrote above: this doesn?t fit together!