Author Topic: Immortal Elves  (Read 24378 times)

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Offline MisterK

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #180 on: March 01, 2022, 11:47:22 AM »
Quote
The memories sort themselves out : anything worth remembering is remembered, anything not worth remembering is buried in the mists of history. Same as humans, really, only on a longer scale.

I don't know. I remember a lot of stupid things I wish I didn't, like that thing I said in high school. And forget things I want to remember, like people's names.
I never said it was under active control :) Basically, you remember what your subconscious deemed important to remember *at the time*. It has nothing to do with what you'd wish you remembered *now*. It's a survival mechanism, and as such, it is completely contextual.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #181 on: March 01, 2022, 11:57:35 AM »
That all makes sense, but is still explanatory of the status quo. My question, given the opportunity to re-set or retcon some aspects of Shadow World, does it make sense to keep all or some Elves "immortal"?
Well, unless you want to rewrite parts of history, you still have to keep *some* elves immortal (those who live throughout the ages). Now for the races as a whole...honestly, I'm not sure "does it make sense" is the right question. I have more trouble with Laan having a 200+ year lifespan yet being described in Haalkitaine as if they pruned their family tree to remove anyone who is a grandparent or more, making the family trees look like elizabethan english nobility look-alikes.

Having immortal elves is compatible with canon, and that's all I really need.


Offline Tywyll

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #182 on: March 02, 2022, 07:31:48 AM »
This is one of the biggest game-setting problems I have had with RM:

                                    IMMORTAL ELVES

Yes, I know it was a carry-ver from ME, and is wickedly-cool-awesome man. But I feel that the thought process of an immortal being - even one that is still a physical entity - would be too alien to understand.



Why though? That is just as much an assumption as the opposite. What if that alien world view only comes with time? I mean, my daughter views the world a hell of a lot more differently than I do, especially as it relates to time. So sure, NPC uber high-level elves might have weird alien mindsets, but not the young ones, not the ones most likely to go out an adventure.

And if they were alien...so what? I mean, the mindset of any race that is fully realized and distinct from humanity ought to be and feel different. Imagine an underground race like dwarves suddenly coming to the surface after decades underground, maybe being constantly terrified they could fall UP.

But if you want a good example of playing alien elves, check out Terrible Beauty for Shadows of the Demon Lord, where elves are not only mentally but physically alien, and you have nice charts to roll on to indicate how they view the world.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #183 on: March 02, 2022, 10:33:58 AM »
I think the thought processes are completely dependent on the environment and the cultural aspects. I will use a few distinct examples from comics, myth and literature to illustrate:
- take, on one hand, the wild elves from Elfquest. Their focus is on the "now", and, in most cases, on survival in a hostile world. Immortality is not something that crosses their mind because the only way to mark the time is through repetitive events (seasons) and exceptional events (births, violent deaths, catastrophic events). They are more in tune with the turn of the seasons than with the passing of years. On the other hand, the secluded elves (Blue Mountain elves) are completely different, and almost insensitive to the passage of time - they have recreated a dream world and everything is unchanging, and they *fear* changes, because it reminds them that their microcosm is not the sum of reality.
- take, on the other hand, the sidhe from faerie myths. They might look almost-human, but they are utterly alien. They obey laws - one might even say *world* laws that make no sense to the average human but nonetheless make them immensely powerful, yet vulnerable to people who can find a new take on those laws. They are entities of contracts, and time has no meaning for them - so little that they can't even understand why it would have a meaning for humans.
- And the Tolkien elves meet humans halfway: human enough to share some thought patterns and habits, such as understanding the erosion of time (on the mind if not on the body), valuing life even in its transient form, and acknowledging the value of community and the threat of violence. On the other hand, they stick to their own because they cannot *relate* to the short-lived individuals (with a few, almost always tragic exceptions) and *do not want to* - they are eternal because they are the first-awakened, and closest to the ideal of world that was sung by the Valar, and humans are different - quick to live, quick to forget, quick to die, a constant reminder that the world is *not* eternal. Elves are not mortal, but they don't want to see death as their neighbour nonetheless. And even among elves, the pull of the undying varies - the Noldor feel it most, and the Teleri feel it the least (and the Vanyar never crossed into the east, so have no wish to "return to the womb", so to speak). Elves in Middle Earth are on borrowed time and it weighs on every one of them.

The problem with Shadow World elves is not that they are immortal. It is that we do not know their origin story and how they live it. They might live it in different ways, but for immortal people, the origin is not myth, it is history. Shay people can watch back a century or two back in time and see history, but anything beyond is the stuff of tales and legends, and the foundation myth is fluid - humans adapt to their environment and reshape their origin myth accordingly. Elves, being immortal, have a different take, because the beginning of the Second Era can be a handful of generations ago, if not less. Even if they do not know how they came to be, their origin myth can be preserved and, if it changes, it is for propaganda needs, not because they can easily forget.

I know most people don't really care about such things (it takes time away from slaying monsters and looting corpses, I guess), but, while the Shadow World timeline does a good job of presenting factual events, it does nothing to explain what people actually believe and why, and while it is not an issue for short-lived races, it is for immortal people - you have no clues about how they cope with being essentially "always there".

The only thing you know is that, barring a violent death, they *are*.

But as a GM, I'd rather come up with foundation myths to explain how elves deal with immortality than change the setting to make them mortal - I guess I'm not looking for an easy way out, rather for one that gives me more interesting story ideas.

Offline B Hanson

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SW Elvish Origins
« Reply #184 on: March 02, 2022, 01:14:52 PM »
Here is the foundation myth we use and is in our "Master Atlas" that I posted up back in 2015.

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15879.0;attach=3411
www.RolemasterBlog.com
Other stuff I've written: https://tinyurl.com/yxrjjmzg
Files Uploaded: https://tinyurl.com/y47cfcrc

Offline Dreven1

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #185 on: March 03, 2022, 09:51:06 PM »
Yes. I am resurrecting this thread--but specifically for Shadow World. Should SW Elves (one type, some or all) be Immortal? Given that Elves and other sentient beings were brought back to Kulthea in the early interregnum, are the major Elvish NPC's 100,000 plus years old?
We already know that a number of Loremasters have been there since the beginning of the Second Era at least (notably Kirin T'Thaan). We also know from Emer II that Prince Elar of Namar-Tol has held his title since the Loari came to the isles in c. SEI 3000.

Not to mention that the Master Atlas [Master Atlas IV pp59+] classify all elven races as "immortal" (Linaeri, Loari, Dyari, Erlini and Shuluri).

I think it's safe to say that they are.

Of course, immortality never stopped a blade. The longer you live, the higher the chance of an "unfortunate accident", especially given the troubled history of Kulthea.

House rule it for Elves:

For the curious Elf:
For each 10 year period after 100, there is a cumulative 1% chance that something horrific happens to the elf (wars, creature encounters, bandits, overthrowing of governments/towns/areas).  Roll at the end of each 10 year period.  If they roll under the percentage, roll on the Large Pierce, Slash or Krush slaying crit. If they keep surviving to 1000 they are rewarded with the knowledge of the ages! Well, and they must make a memory roll to recall anything past 100 years.

For the "lock myself in the tower/castle for 1000 years" Elf:
The percentage drops to make a roll every 100 years with the same cumulative chance (there castle or hidey-hole can still be overthrown, sieged or infiltrated!).  If they survive they only have book knowledge and hearsay and didn’t directly experience it, their history skill goes through the roof but that’s about it.
 
Solved :)
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Offline foilfodder

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #186 on: March 04, 2022, 05:18:44 PM »
House rule it for Elves:

For the curious Elf:
For each 10 year period after 100, there is a cumulative 1% chance that something horrific happens to the elf (wars, creature encounters, bandits, overthrowing of governments/towns/areas).  Roll at the end of each 10 year period.  If they roll under the percentage, roll on the Large Pierce, Slash or Krush slaying crit. If they keep surviving to 1000 they are rewarded with the knowledge of the ages! Well, and they must make a memory roll to recall anything past 100 years.

For the "lock myself in the tower/castle for 1000 years" Elf:
The percentage drops to make a roll every 100 years with the same cumulative chance (there castle or hidey-hole can still be overthrown, sieged or infiltrated!).  If they survive they only have book knowledge and hearsay and didn’t directly experience it, their history skill goes through the roof but that’s about it.
 
Solved :)

To celebrate their 1000th birthday the elf spends all night partying.  Waking up the next day, all the house-plants the elf has nutured for centuries (and had named each) have died. The elf decides that Kulthea is better wiped clean of life joins Priests Arnak in their quest!