Author Topic: Using Adrenal Maneuvers  (Read 2639 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« on: April 19, 2022, 10:30:02 AM »
I like the idea of Adrenal moves a lot. But the difficulty using them seems a bit off. As I understand, you have to prep them the round before you use them and they only last a single round, so you kind of give up your round in order to get two actions next round (adrenal speed)? Or give up your attack this round to do twice the damage next round?

My players belong to the school of thought that every round not spent 'acting' is wasted. Am I viewing these skills wrong? How do you get the most out of them?

Offline MisterK

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2022, 10:58:18 AM »
The Adrenal Moves do not take the entire round.

See RM 2 character Law & Campaign Law, section 3.8 : "Using concentration and self discipline, the character skilled in Adrenal Moves must prepare the round before he will use one of these skills. This is accomplished by taking a 20% penalty on action in this preparation round".

Which basically means that, in the round when you prepare the Adrenal Move, you can perform normal action(s) at -20. In the next round, you Adrenal Move effect activates (if you have succeeded in the Static Manoeuver roll at the end of the preparation round).

So, no round is lost. You basically trade a -20 on round X to get an effect on round x+1. Not a bad trade-off when you consider the effects available.

Offline jdale

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2022, 11:22:02 AM »
You also aren't trading off anything if you are attacking with surprise or an encounter starts with a face-off or negotiation where you have a round or two before melee ensues. Depending on the flow of battle and the amount of space involved, you may also have pauses here and there as you move from foe to foe.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2022, 02:03:57 PM »
We always considered Adrenal Moves the 'thing-you-do-before-you-open-the-next-door-in-the-dungeon' skill.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2022, 03:05:38 PM »
Aside from the fact there are similar trade-offs, such as spells on the Paladin's "Arm's Ways" list where one casts a spell in round x in get its benefits in round x+1, RoCo. IV has an option to maintain adrenal moves over several rounds. You may want to have a look...
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Offline jdale

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2022, 04:31:49 PM »
That's rerolling with a cumulative penalty of -10 per round (optionally -20) but no additional activity requirement. We had that in RMU initially but rolling every round was bogging combat down too much. The maneuvers now last for one round for every 20 you make the roll by (e.g. 101-120 = 1 round, 121-140 = 2 rounds, etc). That seems to balance ok* but keeps things moving better.


* balance issues may be different in RM2 where martial arts are already a bit broken.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2022, 05:36:37 PM »
The maneuvers now last for one round for every 20 you make the roll by (e.g. 101-120 = 1 round, 121-140 = 2 rounds, etc). That seems to balance ok* but keeps things moving better.


That's an interesting idea, and I'm optimistic it will be a good solution. I will try it out in my current games. Unfortunately, I don't have any Monks or Warrior Monks right now, but enemies can always use it...
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2022, 06:40:38 PM »
That's rerolling with a cumulative penalty of -10 per round (optionally -20) but no additional activity requirement. We had that in RMU initially but rolling every round was bogging combat down too much. The maneuvers now last for one round for every 20 you make the roll by (e.g. 101-120 = 1 round, 121-140 = 2 rounds, etc). That seems to balance ok* but keeps things moving better.


* balance issues may be different in RM2 where martial arts are already a bit broken.

That sounds great actually! I do know that RM has had an issue with "roll for everything" mentality. Anything that streamlines play is good in my book!

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2022, 06:40:59 PM »
We always considered Adrenal Moves the 'thing-you-do-before-you-open-the-next-door-in-the-dungeon' skill.

Lol, good idea!

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2022, 06:42:04 PM »
The maneuvers now last for one round for every 20 you make the roll by (e.g. 101-120 = 1 round, 121-140 = 2 rounds, etc). That seems to balance ok* but keeps things moving better.


That's an interesting idea, and I'm optimistic it will be a good solution. I will try it out in my current games. Unfortunately, I don't have any Monks or Warrior Monks right now, but enemies can always use it...

Every Martial character I would play would pick them up. A warrior with a two handed sword and adrenal strength would be a terror!

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2022, 08:24:41 PM »
But, I feel, that they are not worth attempting until you have a bonus high enough to make it more than 75% likely to succeed at the AM. Prior to that, they are just DP sinks (much like the different "levels" of unarmed strikes/sweeps - never really liked that implementation).
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Offline jdale

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2022, 09:57:20 PM »
In any of those situations where you are not in melee (yet), they cost you basically nothing to try. Unlike a spell, there's no PP cost, and there's no limitation on the number of uses per day.
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2022, 11:59:31 PM »
The character I'm currently playing has a low cost for adrenal moves but no level bonus for Concentration skills, so I've avoided spending any DPs on those skills and instead compensated with regular skills. This discussion has gotten me re-thinking that strategy, but I'm still hung up on the fact that most of the adrenal moves only seem to make use of the skill rank bonus. If that's the case, what use are the Pr and SD stats that the rules say the skills use?

For example, Adrenal Balance and Landing state that the skill rank bonus is used after the preparation round to impact the success of any separate maneuvers or simply modifying the fall height calculation, leaving the (unstated) possibility of the stat bonuses being used to determine the success of just getting the skill off in the first place.

On the other hand, Adrenal Speed and Strength explicitly say that the skill rank bonus is necessary during the preparation round for successfully getting the skill off in order to have the bonuses take effect the next round, leaving no clear place for the stat bonuses to be incorporated.

If I can use my stat bonuses at some point during the execution of the skills, I would be more likely to take some of them, but they don't currently seem worth it to me. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2022, 03:48:06 AM »
But, I feel, that they are not worth attempting until you have a bonus high enough to make it more than 75% likely to succeed at the AM. Prior to that, they are just DP sinks (much like the different "levels" of unarmed strikes/sweeps - never really liked that implementation).

I do 100% agree with you here. They are really just blackholes for DP until probably you have at least 10 ranks. And I also think this is poor design, but other than starting at higher levels, I don't know really know how to fix that.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2022, 03:51:13 AM »
The character I'm currently playing has a low cost for adrenal moves but no level bonus for Concentration skills, so I've avoided spending any DPs on those skills and instead compensated with regular skills. This discussion has gotten me re-thinking that strategy, but I'm still hung up on the fact that most of the adrenal moves only seem to make use of the skill rank bonus. If that's the case, what use are the Pr and SD stats that the rules say the skills use?

For example, Adrenal Balance and Landing state that the skill rank bonus is used after the preparation round to impact the success of any separate maneuvers or simply modifying the fall height calculation, leaving the (unstated) possibility of the stat bonuses being used to determine the success of just getting the skill off in the first place.

On the other hand, Adrenal Speed and Strength explicitly say that the skill rank bonus is necessary during the preparation round for successfully getting the skill off in order to have the bonuses take effect the next round, leaving no clear place for the stat bonuses to be incorporated.

If I can use my stat bonuses at some point during the execution of the skills, I would be more likely to take some of them, but they don't currently seem worth it to me. Am I interpreting this correctly?

I never noticed that, or never read it that way. I always assumed you roll your total skill bonus (with ranks+stats+class bonuses) to achieve success and then after that, in some cases you only use ranks for the benefits. But I'll will reread and see if I missed something. Granted, to me, Adrenal speed and strength always had my attention, so I never paid much attention to adrenal balance.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2022, 04:06:05 AM »
The character I'm currently playing has a low cost for adrenal moves but no level bonus for Concentration skills, so I've avoided spending any DPs on those skills and instead compensated with regular skills. This discussion has gotten me re-thinking that strategy, but I'm still hung up on the fact that most of the adrenal moves only seem to make use of the skill rank bonus. If that's the case, what use are the Pr and SD stats that the rules say the skills use?

For example, Adrenal Balance and Landing state that the skill rank bonus is used after the preparation round to impact the success of any separate maneuvers or simply modifying the fall height calculation, leaving the (unstated) possibility of the stat bonuses being used to determine the success of just getting the skill off in the first place.

On the other hand, Adrenal Speed and Strength explicitly say that the skill rank bonus is necessary during the preparation round for successfully getting the skill off in order to have the bonuses take effect the next round, leaving no clear place for the stat bonuses to be incorporated.

If I can use my stat bonuses at some point during the execution of the skills, I would be more likely to take some of them, but they don't currently seem worth it to me. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Checking out Rolemaster Classic, it seems clear to me that this isn't what is intended. There is nothing in the Adrenal Moves description about not using the entire skill to make the roll and even references Presence and Self-Discipline as stats you would use. The skill description limits the *benefits* of things like Balance and Falling to your ranks, but activation is the entire skill value.

"ADRENAL MOVES (VARIES)
These skills relate to the development of the art of superhuman effort. Using “concentration” and self discipline, the character skilled in Adrenal Moves must prepare the round before he will use one of these skills. This is accomplished by taking a 20% penalty on action in this preparation round. Adrenal Moves may not be attempted in consecutive rounds, nor maymore than one be attempted at any one time. Skill ranks in each Adrenal Move must be developed separately. Each Adrenal Move counts as a separate area for development purposes."

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2022, 09:31:29 AM »
I do 100% agree with you here. They are really just blackholes for DP until probably you have at least 10 ranks. And I also think this is poor design, but other than starting at higher levels, I don't know really know how to fix that.
Well, we already have spell casting that breaks the typical skill check mold, why not adrenal moves?

You can say they only fail if you critically fail, like spells. Like (many) spells, you still want to develop it more because higher successes can mean something. In the case of AD, you can increase their duration, effect (bonus granted, et al) or something else like that.

If that seems like it would be too easy, then you can increase their basic effect and allow lesser success results to mean success, just lesser success using the MM table. The GM sets the Difficulty for the current situation (each AM will have it's own "Base" difficulty) and the result on the MM table is the amount of the bonus they get. In RMSS/FRP the regular Static action Table has different level so of success, and those can be used to determine how much of the total bonus they get. This method is good for a couple of reason, imo: It doesn't change the skill bonus progression of AM skills, it uses an existing table for resolution, and at higher levels the bonuses are still worthwhile. (A +20 at 10th+ level is really minor, and often not worth the effort.)
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2022, 09:36:29 AM »
Checking out Rolemaster Classic, it seems clear to me that this isn't what is intended. There is nothing in the Adrenal Moves description about not using the entire skill to make the roll and even references Presence and Self-Discipline as stats you would use. The skill description limits the *benefits* of things like Balance and Falling to your ranks, but activation is the entire skill value.

"ADRENAL MOVES (VARIES)
These skills relate to the development of the art of superhuman effort. Using “concentration” and self discipline, the character skilled in Adrenal Moves must prepare the round before he will use one of these skills. This is accomplished by taking a 20% penalty on action in this preparation round. Adrenal Moves may not be attempted in consecutive rounds, nor may more than one be attempted at any one time. Skill ranks in each Adrenal Move must be developed separately. Each Adrenal Move counts as a separate area for development purposes."
It hadn't occurred to me to check RMC for any clarifications/corrections that had been made on the skill descriptions. Comparing them side by side to RM2, I see that the only difference is that RMC adds the note stating to use Presence/Self-Discipline stat bonuses for all Adrenal Moves.  However, all the other wording is identical, so it's still not clear in my mind where they would specifically be used for each of the types of moves.

Unless the full bonus is used at the beginning of the preparation round and, if it fails, then it just doesn't go off? If that's the case, it I'd think that a note should've been put in at some point to clarify it because it seems to be an important part of the mechanic.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2022, 10:10:32 AM »
I think the discrepancy is an error. Note that at the bottom of the description of how the Adrenal Moves work in RM2 Character and Campaign Law (red band edition, p. 53), there is the note, 'Note: Use Presence stat bonus for all Adrenal Moves'. This is there despite the fact that there is no stat bonus mentioned in any of the skill descriptions above this note. We always took that to mean that the stat bonus was intended to be added to the rolls, even though the verbal description spoke only of 'skill rank bonus'.

RM Companion II also listed 'PR/SD' as the stats for Adrenal Moves, so it would be odd if these stats never came into play.

Fun fact: the original Character Law (RM1, or First Edition, p. 12) said, 'then adds the bonus for his skill level in Strength Adrenal Move'. So I think the error might have crept in during the move from first to second edition, or from the first printings of second edition to the red band printing.
     Further confirming this impression, the first edition printing of Character Law (p. 12), in describing Adrenal Balance, reads, 'skill bonus'. Though this is in reference to the bonus that applies after the concentration maneuver has been made, it does read 'skill bonus' in RM1, but that has been changed in RM2 (red band) to read 'skill rank bonus'. So a change has clearly been made, and I really think it must have been done inadvertently.
     Finally, both RM1 and RM2 had the chart that listed  PR (and PR/SD if using the optional rule about multiple stat bonuses) as the stat for Adrenal Moves.

Final Note: The rules for maintaining adrenals in Companion IV do clearly read 'skill bonus' rather than 'skill rank bonus', at least for the roll to maintain the adrenals.
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2022, 11:19:32 PM »
I think the discrepancy is an error. Note that at the bottom of the description of how the Adrenal Moves work in RM2 Character and Campaign Law (red band edition, p. 53), there is the note, 'Note: Use Presence stat bonus for all Adrenal Moves'. This is there despite the fact that there is no stat bonus mentioned in any of the skill descriptions above this note. We always took that to mean that the stat bonus was intended to be added to the rolls, even though the verbal description spoke only of 'skill rank bonus'.

RM Companion II also listed 'PR/SD' as the stats for Adrenal Moves, so it would be odd if these stats never came into play.

Fun fact: the original Character Law (RM1, or First Edition, p. 12) said, 'then adds the bonus for his skill level in Strength Adrenal Move'. So I think the error might have crept in during the move from first to second edition, or from the first printings of second edition to the red band printing.
     Further confirming this impression, the first edition printing of Character Law (p. 12), in describing Adrenal Balance, reads, 'skill bonus'. Though this is in reference to the bonus that applies after the concentration maneuver has been made, it does read 'skill bonus' in RM1, but that has been changed in RM2 (red band) to read 'skill rank bonus'. So a change has clearly been made, and I really think it must have been done inadvertently.
     Finally, both RM1 and RM2 had the chart that listed  PR (and PR/SD if using the optional rule about multiple stat bonuses) as the stat for Adrenal Moves.

Final Note: The rules for maintaining adrenals in Companion IV do clearly read 'skill bonus' rather than 'skill rank bonus', at least for the roll to maintain the adrenals.
Thank you for digging into the history of this. I don't have access to the first edition books, so it's interesting to find out what they used to say. It wouldn't surprise me if it really was "error creep" across multiple printings and editions. I've already found other instances where this has happened between different books in second edition, only to be finally sorted out in Classic.

Do we know anything about how RMU will handle the Adrenal skills in this regard?