Author Topic: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??  (Read 1394 times)

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Offline C.Tozer

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Quick question - for Perception/Awareness rolls/checks how do you handle it?

Does only the GM (ie a secret roll) or only the players roll or do both sometimes? If both the players and the GM roll for perception checks how do you decide who rolls on which occasions?

If your players do roll how you handle the potential situation where a player may roll a 01 for their character, know that they screwed up and "keep on looking till I find something"?

Thanks
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2022, 07:12:41 PM »
I usually use the DnD concept of 'passive' skill bonuses, though sometimes I apply the idea of 'player always rolls' to make everything more fun for the player.

I use passive perception when a PC is trying to Stalk past a guard or remain hidden. Passive perception is adding an average roll (50 in RM) to the guard's Perception skill bonus. The total is the target number the PC needs to Stalk successfully. I can then apply any bonuses/penalties for conditions (e.g. deep shadows = +30) to the player's roll.

You can also use passive bonuses in the reverse. Say the PC is the guard now, and the NPC is the one trying to sneak past. The target number the PC needs to get on his Perception roll is now 50 + the sneaker's Stalking skill bonus. The adjustment for shadows is now a -30 instead of a +30, since the PC is now the guard.

This is very simple and fast.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2022, 07:15:52 PM »
I sometimes roll secretly to avoid giving anything away, but most of the time I let players roll. My players are ok about roleplaying incompetence when the dice so dictate, if they weren't I would be more inclined to roll for them.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2022, 08:00:00 PM »
If a player fumbled a perception check and the player kept trying to look for something they obviously know they fumbled, when they asked to search again I'd roll the dice behind a screen, blatantly NOT look at the dice, and tell them they found/saw nothing. Or maybe have them roll their dice again and before they actually stop rolling tell them they found nothing.

Something useful to do is just randomly ask everyone at the table to roll dice for no reason. Get them used to not knowing when it's actually relevant.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2022, 09:54:21 PM »
   As a GM, unless a player is actively searching, I make the passive skill rolls for them. I have those particular skills listed, especially the commonly used skills. The rolls are made in secret and I will only mention it if the result has a notable effect.

 
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2022, 11:18:57 PM »
As a GM I'd consistently try to never roll for a player unless there's just no way around it.  Just not a popular thing to do for most gamers I've met.

If it's some kind of contested thing, someone hiding from them or trying to pick their pockets, and I didn't want them to make a roll I'd be inclined to do something like use their skill as a negative modifier and apply it to the chart the foe would use rather than make contested rolls.  If it's to notice something inanimate I'll have everyone in the party roll regardless of who's result I really want (this is also where just having the entire party roll randomly once a while helps with that).
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2022, 11:56:01 PM »
As a GM I'd consistently try to never roll for a player unless there's just no way around it.  Just not a popular thing to do for most gamers I've met.
Totally agree with that. Even if it means players get information that their characters don't have. I mean, it happens all the time already, and I trust the people I play with (even if they don't necessarily trust themselves sometimes :p).

To be honest, I'd like to avoid rolling dice altogether as a GM, I have other things to do. If I could have the players roll for defence instead of the NPCs roll for attack I'd be a happier GM (thus my current work on a RM hack...).

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2022, 03:42:35 AM »
I sometimes roll secretly to avoid giving anything away, but most of the time I let players roll. My players are ok about roleplaying incompetence when the dice so dictate, if they weren't I would be more inclined to roll for them.
That's also how we handle it.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2022, 03:56:32 PM »
I never roll for the players either.  They have their PCs and have invested a lot of time into them, I don't like to make them feel as if the GM is taking control away from the players.   

While that approach may make it seem like the players know the outcome based on their rolls i.e.: OE up or down, there are ways around it.  Just because a player has open ended high, it does not equate to success.  It simply mean they rolled high, did an excellent <insert task here>, but the opposing person could have rolled higher, or simply set a trap that was above their skill level.  For example, Detect Traps yields a roll of 136.  The trap maker rolled a 183 for setting/making the trap.  Great roll on the PC's part, just not as good as their foe.  That helps set the mood for the party too.  They all see the open end, hear the 136 and applaud, then discover it wasn't enough as the trap goes off.  The party starts to wonder "Oh crap, who are we going against???"

If the player OE down, it does not always mean instant fail.  I'll use this sometimes if it's a dumb luck roll.  Ever do a Where's Waldo and the very instant you open the page, you're looking right at Waldo?  Purely accidental, just dumb luck.  I'll use that OE down roll when It's simply way above the skill level of the players and only dumb luck can help them, only by stumbling right into it, can they succeed.  It keeps the players still excited about rolls, even if they seem like failures. 

Ever walk barefoot on the pool deck and you find the only nail sticking up?  You weren't looking for that nail, but damn it, you found it!

Sometimes, to keep the players on their toes, I'll roll the dice, do some fake math in my head and say "Uh.  OK.  Keep going."  That really messes with them :)
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2022, 03:27:11 AM »
Easy pe@sy!  Deception is key.

Always let the players roll except when rolling secret-y stuff to add suspense!
Even then, you can “set the 100” by the GM rolling their own dice to encrypt open player results. 
Whatever their rolls are, re-map whatever they got to match the new encrypted result.

Ie.
GM rolls a ‘72’ on their dice to set the 100 for this particular Perception skill roll to note a sneaky, Gark Nightblade tailing them. 
This is a difference of 28 added to any Player rolls under 72 for their dice, wrapping back over to +1 for every digit above 72 to actual 100(ie. 73=1, 74=2, etc)
So, Player rolls of 60, 46, 87, and 29 become 88, 74, 15 and 57 respectively.

Math out the new results with the PC’s super-secret skill boni that every GM has access to(Perception, Stalk&Hide, Disarm Traps/Pick Locks) and they’ll scratch their heads when the GM asks the Player that rolled a ‘09’ to roll again because that ended up being the new 100.

A fun trick when rolls need to be hidden and y’never take rolling away from a person this way.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2022, 04:57:56 PM »
Easy pe@sy!  Deception is key.

Always let the players roll except when rolling secret-y stuff to add suspense!
Even then, you can “set the 100” by the GM rolling their own dice to encrypt open player results. 
Whatever their rolls are, re-map whatever they got to match the new encrypted result.


I also use the MM Tables.  The players have no idea which difficulty column I'm using to resolve the rolls. 
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Jengada

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2022, 05:03:03 PM »
I let the players roll. I often ask for random rolls, as others have mentioned. I have also, at times, had them roll 4d10 where I can see them. I pick two before the roll, and those make the d% value I use. That way they don't know what they rolled, exactly. It's fun to watch the reaction to a set of rolls like 0-1-0-0, was that a 00, a 01, or a 10?
We ask the hard questions here, because they keep us too busy to worry about the hard questions in the real world, and we can go with the answers we like the best.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2022, 08:08:10 PM »
I have also, at times, had them roll 4d10 where I can see them. I pick two before the roll, and those make the d% value I use.
That's a great idea.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2022, 03:38:59 AM »
  Due to a couple of players who would waste time "auditioning" their dice (repeated test rolls with several dice before declaring their "real" roll) I decided to go diceless.
I used sheets of computer generated numbers and would simply have players declare their actions. I calculated the modifiers, crossed off a number and let the players know the results, if they were aware of any.

Some players complained that they couldn't use their "lucky" dice. A session with them using dice proved that their dice were not significantly luckier than randomly generated numbers and one player did worse with his "lucky" dice. Since my players are used to using dice bots online, I could run a game on my tablet with all the rolling done with a touch and leave the players more time to plan their actions instead of rolling dice or typing bot commands.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2022, 04:00:45 AM »
If your players do roll how you handle the potential situation where a player may roll a 01 for their character, know that they screwed up and "keep on looking till I find something"?
I realised I did not answer that part of the question.

I got rid of "roll to find clues" dice rolls. I mean, if a GM puts clues somewhere, it's not for the PCs to miss them - that's just wasted time and opportunity. I know I will give them clues according to the skills they use (Gumshoe inspiration here : I don't need a 'search' skill because all clues are contextual to the skills the PC knows - if they're architecture experts, architectural clues will be obvious for them; if they have knowledge of underworld loot fencing, illegal goods clues will catch their eye, and so on). The point is rather how I give those clues and what are the strings attached to them - a high roll means you get the clue and maybe some situational bonus attached - secondary information, collateral social information, whatever; low roll means you get the clue but trigger an unfortunate event - either immediate, such as someone noticing  you being nosy, or delayed, such as you leaving investigation footprints that give information about you to third parties.

Basically, the roll is not about whether you find something or not, but whether you are lucky or unlucky while finding what is there.

Which removes the urge to "roll again" - the PCs have found the clue, and any consequences of the roll(s) are now facts. There is nothing left to roll for.

Offline C.Tozer

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Re: Perception/Awareness rolls/checks - who rolls? Just the GM ....??
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2022, 08:23:35 PM »
Thanks all - LOTS of really good food for thought here.

MisterK I like the idea of "whether you find something or not, but whether you are lucky or unlucky while finding what is there" and Majyk I really like this simple but really useful idea of randomising the numnbers - the players still get to roll but they just don't know what it means.

I think I'm going to tell my players that I am doing this would be the only add I make

Again thanks all.

Easy pe@sy!  Deception is key.

Always let the players roll except when rolling secret-y stuff to add suspense!
Even then, you can “set the 100” by the GM rolling their own dice to encrypt open player results. 
Whatever their rolls are, re-map whatever they got to match the new encrypted result.

Ie.
GM rolls a ‘72’ on their dice to set the 100 for this particular Perception skill roll to note a sneaky, Gark Nightblade tailing them. 
This is a difference of 28 added to any Player rolls under 72 for their dice, wrapping back over to +1 for every digit above 72 to actual 100(ie. 73=1, 74=2, etc)
So, Player rolls of 60, 46, 87, and 29 become 88, 74, 15 and 57 respectively.

Math out the new results with the PC’s super-secret skill boni that every GM has access to(Perception, Stalk&Hide, Disarm Traps/Pick Locks) and they’ll scratch their heads when the GM asks the Player that rolled a ‘09’ to roll again because that ended up being the new 100.

A fun trick when rolls need to be hidden and y’never take rolling away from a person this way.
**Interested in some Rolemaster Actual Play Sessions to watch - check out https://www.youtube.com/@ofhorrorsandheroes ***