Author Topic: Level Bonuses...why the hate?  (Read 3520 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« on: April 12, 2022, 08:32:01 AM »
Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, but I am curious why the level bonuses system seems to get so much hate over the years? I mean, even RMSS changed it from X per level to a flat bonus. There are tons of optional "fixes" in the companions but I don't understand why.

I mean, it makes sense to me that a rogue or warrior who has developed plenty of combat skills would just be better with a new weapon, even one they have never used, than a thief or magician. Like, it seems like a simplified way of handling "similar skills" and stop punishing characters who develop a skill later in their career. It also seems to help martial classes which, lets face it, need all the help they can get. So why have so many people tried to "fix" this mechanic?


Offline Hurin

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2022, 08:49:22 AM »
I'm not sure it gets all that hate, but the one significant beef I had with it (at least in its RM2 incarnation) was that it rendered some professions less desirable to my players. Since Paladins got a +3/level bonus to combat skills, while Rangers got +1 and Bards got 0, my players played more Paladins than Rangers, and I don't think I ever saw a Bard. I've always played in combat-focused groups, so perhaps this was unusual, but a difference of +20 or +30 in OB at 10th level is significant enough to stratify the character classes into tiers, with some perceived as significantly higher/better.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2022, 10:59:39 AM »
I'm not sure it gets all that hate, but the one significant beef I had with it (at least in its RM2 incarnation) was that it rendered some professions less desirable to my players. Since Paladins got a +3/level bonus to combat skills, while Rangers got +1 and Bards got 0, my players played more Paladins than Rangers, and I don't think I ever saw a Bard. I've always played in combat-focused groups, so perhaps this was unusual, but a difference of +20 or +30 in OB at 10th level is significant enough to stratify the character classes into tiers, with some perceived as significantly higher/better.

Now I do 100% agree here. I do think players should have some flexibility to adjust the level mods so you don't need 4 variants of bard, for example. Kind of subclasses without the name. But then the ranger was just awful so I understand no one wanting to play that class!

Offline jdale

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2022, 12:36:49 PM »
RMSS/RMFRP put all of those bonuses up front which didn't do anything to limit those gaps, but did improve the competence of starting characters quite a bit.

RMU gives you a choice of 10 out of 15 skills, and the amount of bonus is always the same (e.g. both paladins and rangers get the same +1). Also, the bonus is based on ranks rather than levels, so you don't get any bonus if you aren't improving the skill. So that addresses both the gap and the desire for flexibility.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2022, 12:57:15 PM »
The advantage of having flat bonuses is twofold IMHO
- it increases proficiency notably at earlier levels (which, TBH, was something of an issue in RM2)
- there is no divergence at higher levels : given an equal number of ranks developed, the difference between a profession with a skill bonus and a profession without will not change.

Per level bonuses tend to increase the stereotyping effect at high levels (while flat bonuses tend to increase it at very low levels). My opinion is that the latter is desirable while the former is not, but YMMV, as usual.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2022, 02:10:57 PM »
RMSS/RMFRP put all of those bonuses up front which didn't do anything to limit those gaps, but did improve the competence of starting characters quite a bit.

RMU gives you a choice of 10 out of 15 skills, and the amount of bonus is always the same (e.g. both paladins and rangers get the same +1). Also, the bonus is based on ranks rather than levels, so you don't get any bonus if you aren't improving the skill. So that addresses both the gap and the desire for flexibility.

Yeah, see, personally I hate that "fix" because it still means that late development is always a poor choice and it gets rid of the holistic improvement that levels should grant. I guess my issue is that casters get PP for free when leveling, so I see nothing wrong with other classes getting something "free" that sets them apart. Especially martials! I mean, learning spell lists in chunks gives casters something that continues to get better as they level without additional investment.

I do agree that a front loaded bonus helps low level characters, but I guess I would like to see that front loaded bonus continue to improve after a certain point.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2022, 02:17:43 PM »
The advantage of having flat bonuses is twofold IMHO
- it increases proficiency notably at earlier levels (which, TBH, was something of an issue in RM2)
- there is no divergence at higher levels : given an equal number of ranks developed, the difference between a profession with a skill bonus and a profession without will not change.

Per level bonuses tend to increase the stereotyping effect at high levels (while flat bonuses tend to increase it at very low levels). My opinion is that the latter is desirable while the former is not, but YMMV, as usual.

I feel the opposite! 😆
So thinking of fictive concepts, I can't think of an example of a mighty warrior being reduced to neophyte status when they were forced to use a new or unfamiliar weapon. Their skill with dodging and weapon use is still transferable across weapon types. In fact, defensive ability being almost solely tied to skill development is actually what's at fault here, since avoiding hits has a lot to do with footwork and observation which would be handled differently in a different combat system. So that 20th level fighter deserves that +60 even when using an alien weapon because they have years of avoiding attacks, reading opponents, etc. Doesn't matter if they haven't used a hammer before, they should still know more than a first level warrior about dodging and taking advantage of their opponents.

Offline jdale

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2022, 02:48:34 PM »
RMU deals with that with skill similarity, weapon skills purchased in categories rather than individual weapons, rapid development, and fighting techniques that only need to be purchased up to a functional level instead of permanently kept on par with your OB skill. I would venture to say that it is more viable to change fighting styles in RMU than in any previous edition.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2022, 08:36:32 PM »
I'll use the RM2 level bonus system even when running RMSS.  It's one of the things I think is better about RM2 over RMSS.
Put simply, it prevents the problem of there being little to no point in increasing a skill past level 20 or so.
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Offline Green Manalishi

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2022, 11:15:44 PM »
The level bonus breaks down, IMO, in the non-combat skills. That thief at 20th level has +60 to subterfuge skills, plus likely a +70 for skill rank of just 20, and another +10 to +30 for stats, so even at +140, they will succeed at an absurd maneuver 2/3 of the time, while a fighter for example, has 30 ranks, and +20 for stats, will succeed at same absurd maneuver only 1/3 of the time, despite developing it more. I don't have a problem with a thief being better at the same rank but that much of a difference I think is too much.

Also another point, I agree with Tywyll in that the mechanic does to an extent make someone experienced in combat picking up an unfamiliar weapon doesn't forget all the training. Fighting with a weapon is much more than just how to swing a weapon, it's about footwork, balance, attacking opponents weakness while defending your own.

I think this is where professions without level bonus or low ones get shafted with specific weapon development.


Offline MisterK

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2022, 11:49:58 PM »
I feel the opposite! 😆
So thinking of fictive concepts, I can't think of an example of a mighty warrior being reduced to neophyte status when they were forced to use a new or unfamiliar weapon. Their skill with dodging and weapon use is still transferable across weapon types. In fact, defensive ability being almost solely tied to skill development is actually what's at fault here, since avoiding hits has a lot to do with footwork and observation which would be handled differently in a different combat system. So that 20th level fighter deserves that +60 even when using an alien weapon because they have years of avoiding attacks, reading opponents, etc. Doesn't matter if they haven't used a hammer before, they should still know more than a first level warrior about dodging and taking advantage of their opponents.
I think that's what category development was for in RMSS/FRP.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2022, 12:11:56 AM »
The level bonus breaks down, IMO, in the non-combat skills. That thief at 20th level has +60 to subterfuge skills, plus likely a +70 for skill rank of just 20, and another +10 to +30 for stats, so even at +140, they will succeed at an absurd maneuver 2/3 of the time, while a fighter for example, has 30 ranks, and +20 for stats, will succeed at same absurd maneuver only 1/3 of the time, despite developing it more. I don't have a problem with a thief being better at the same rank but that much of a difference I think is too much.
See, this is exactly what I think should really happen.  You're talking about an 'Absurd' maneuver.  If everyone eventually became as good as everyone else at everything, but even bother with professions?
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Offline Green Manalishi

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2022, 12:44:33 AM »
The level bonus breaks down, IMO, in the non-combat skills. That thief at 20th level has +60 to subterfuge skills, plus likely a +70 for skill rank of just 20, and another +10 to +30 for stats, so even at +140, they will succeed at an absurd maneuver 2/3 of the time, while a fighter for example, has 30 ranks, and +20 for stats, will succeed at same absurd maneuver only 1/3 of the time, despite developing it more. I don't have a problem with a thief being better at the same rank but that much of a difference I think is too much.
See, this is exactly what I think should really happen.  You're talking about an 'Absurd' maneuver.  If everyone eventually became as good as everyone else at everything, but even bother with professions?

I will disagree with your conclusion, in no way will a fighter be able to do everything as a thief, or vice versa. The thief should be better overall in subterfuge, but in one skill or a very small group of skills, I feel a Fighter should be able to be nearly as good as the thief, especially if the fighter developed more ranks than the thief.

A 20th level thief with one rank per level developed has 70+60 for a total of 130. 20th level fighter with 40 ranks has 85 bonus, despite having double the ranks. That's a difference of 45.

What I don't want is "you wanna be really good at this skill, you have to be this profession." That goes against the spirit of RM. Otherwise, forget skill development, a profession gets these abilities as they level up, like the other game Rm was set to improve upon.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2022, 01:08:10 AM »
What I don't want is "you wanna be really good at this skill, you have to be this profession." That goes against the spirit of RM. Otherwise, forget skill development, a profession gets these abilities as they level up, like the other game Rm was set to improve upon.
If you want a Fighter to reliably execute 'Absurd' stealth maneuvers you aren't talking about merely being 'good' at it.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2022, 05:56:06 AM »
See, this is exactly what I think should really happen.  You're talking about an 'Absurd' maneuver.  If everyone eventually became as good as everyone else at everything, but even bother with professions?
Because what is important is the journey, not the destination ?

Offline Green Manalishi

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2022, 11:27:17 AM »
And yet it seems everyone is fine with a thief unlikely to fail an absurd maneuver, just because he's a thief.

And since it seems difficult to understand why I used absurd, since it has been mentioned several times, missing my overall point, is that a thief with moderate effort (meaning one rank per level) is able to be far superior than another with maximum effort (a fighter developing two ranks a level) and by utilizing the odds at Absurd shows the degree of separation that exists. This is because of level bonuses, and a reason that some may have the "hate" of level bonuses that was the topic of this thread.





 

Offline Hurin

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2022, 01:52:05 PM »
I would just like to note that JDale and the developers of RMU do address some of these issues, and offer a range of options for dealing with them that I think are the best Rolemaster has been able to offer. Jdale has mentioned these above, but I think his post has gotten a bit lost in the animated (and engaging!) discussion.

To address the issue of the Fighter who picks up an unfamiliar weapon: Characters in RMU now get proficiency in categories, so if it is a weapon of the same category (e.g. a Claymore instead of a Great Falchion), then the Fighter already has full proficiency,  because both are in the Greater Blades category and very close in the way they are used. If the weapon is from a different category, the Fighter still has other options. Fighter can use the (now core) similar skills rule, meaning he can wield the new weapon with as little as a -25 penalty, if the weapons are judged to have a similar skillset. And if all else fails, the Fighter can also take a level to familiarize himself with the new weapon by buying multiple ranks at level up (and for a Fighter, this will be relatively cheap), which is also now a core rule.

To address the issue of the Fighter vs. the Thief at a Subterfuge skill: By tying the professional bonus to the actual number of ranks developed, RMU allows the Thief to be better at a skill like this, which is associated specifically with his class, but how much better will vary considerably depending on how much the Thief has trained in the skill. At low levels and low skill ranks, the difference will be less than at high levels and skill ranks. Personally, I like this better than previous flat level bonus or up-front bonus systems, where there was no inherent link at all between professional bonus and the actual number of ranks developed.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2022, 07:47:13 PM »
See, this is exactly what I think should really happen.  You're talking about an 'Absurd' maneuver.  If everyone eventually became as good as everyone else at everything, but even bother with professions?
Because what is important is the journey, not the destination ?
That's not a serious answer.

How about this then: Should a Thief be able to equal a fighter in raw melee power?  It's the same question.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2022, 11:49:52 PM »
Because what is important is the journey, not the destination ?
That's not a serious answer.

How about this then: Should a Thief be able to equal a fighter in raw melee power?  It's the same question.
Ultimately, I can't see why not.

Thus my answer.

The thief can equal a fighter in raw melee power. But they might have to sacrifice much more to get to that point (in terms of development costs) and it might take more time. But in the end, the only thing that should matter is how much effort you did put in your learning (skill ranks) and how much natural talent you have (stat bonus). I could do without profession bonus altogether in RM by slightly altering the development costs and including talents that provide individual skill bonuses to provide a finer granularity for natural talent.

I mean, if I want to make sure a thief is less capable than a fighter in raw melee power, I go with a much more class-centric system, and we all know what name immediately comes to mind for those.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Level Bonuses...why the hate?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2022, 05:46:55 AM »
How about this then: Should a Thief be able to equal a fighter in raw melee power?  It's the same question.
  With the same physical build, why not?

  While I prefer skill based gaming systems I still have a problem with games based on classes and professions. Skills are learned and developed through time and training. Class/Profession is an artificial concept that gives benefits and limits based on a label.
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