Topic: Skill vs Skill and Skill vs Monsters?

[Tywyll]

I know this is an old chestnut. How is the best way to handle Skill vs skill? I know in RMC it recommends subtracting a character's perception from a character's Stalk and Hide (which seems super harsh, but okay). Is that how you handle it for all contests?

And how do you handle monsters who do not have skill blocks and/or stats (which is one of the worst things that RM did and continued to do until RMU I think)?

[Hurin]

I know this is an old chestnut. How is the best way to handle Skill vs skill? I know in RMC it recommends subtracting a character's perception from a character's Stalk and Hide (which seems super harsh, but okay). Is that how you handle it for all contests?

I normally just use straight-up opposed checks. So, in a case of stalking, you can have both characters roll, and the stalker needs to exceed the target's perception.
      If I don't want the players to know what I'm rolling, I will often give the guard a '50' on his/her roll, so the target number for the stalker becomes 50 + guard's perception skill bonus. This is similar to how stalking works in DnD's 'passive perception' system.

And how do you handle monsters who do not have skill blocks and/or stats (which is one of the worst things that RM did and continued to do until RMU I think)?

There isn't a very good way, other than estimating the monster's perception skill bonus. And I just use RMU, where each creature has a stat block.

[MisterK]

The main question, in my opinion, is : "if two opposed people have equal skills, and conditions do not favour anyone, what are the chances one of them wins" ?

My personal answer to that is 50%.

If you ignore partial and near successes, and use a binary outcome (100 or less = failure, 101+ = success), then the skill roll must provide equal chances for both outcomes.
- either you do an opposed roll (which is good for PC vs PC, less so for PC vs NPC because the GM has enough things to do already)
- or you adjust the active skill check so that the probabilities of success are 50%. In this case, it means that the roll is made as follows :
roll = <active PC skill> + d100OE - (<opposing NPC skill> -50) [or roll = <active PC skill> +50 +d100OE - <opposing NPC skill>, which is the same thing].

Add situational modifiers as needed, but only add those that have an impact on one skill but not the other (if a conditional modifier impacts both skills the same way, the net result is 0).

If the NPC is active and the PC is reacting, make the PC roll anyway.

[Jengada]

And how do you handle monsters who do not have skill blocks and/or stats (which is one of the worst things that RM did and continued to do until RMU I think)?

Monster perception is a huge pain. For the creatures I've made up, and sometimes for those from C&T that I use, I assign Sense adjectives and perception modifiers: Lousy=-20, Poor=0, Average=+20, Good=+40, Very Good=+80, Excellent=+100
They get 4 sense descriptions: hearing, daylight vision, night vision, and smell. You could modify as you see fit.

On the opposed roles and modifiers, be careful about double-counting. Dark lighting gives a -30 to perception, and a +30 to hiding. Why is hiding easier in the dark, if not because it makes one harder to perceive? Any category or condition that has a modifier for both of the opposing skills should only really be applied once.

[MisterK]

There is also the issue of opposed skills not really being opposed. For instance, a standard stalk&hide skill used for hiding in the dark is not much of a counter to a smell-based perception or a thermal vision.

In addition, extremely acute senses not only increase the chance of detection, they can also greatly increase the *range* at which detection can occur. But those acute sense might be fine-tuned for specific uses - for instance, sight that can detect movements at a great range and with great accuracy, but is not very useful to detect variations in colours in a still scene.

You can also assume that, unless there is someone proficient in hunting or wilderness survival, characters will be detected by smell and hearing by most animals, especially if they are upwind. Which probably means that the skill actually opposed to an animal's perception is wilderness survival, not stalk&hide.

[netbat]

Wasn't there an option where instead of opposed rolls for stalking/hiding vs perception, it was a success on stalking/hiding modified the perception difficulty? i.e. you roll really well on hiding and it increases the difficulty of a sight or sound based perception maneuver, but does nothing for a scent or presence based perception maneuver?

[RandalThor]

And how do you handle monsters who do not have skill blocks and/or stats (which is one of the worst things that RM did and continued to do until RMU I think)?

Monster perception is a huge pain. For the creatures I've made up, and sometimes for those from C&T that I use, I assign Sense adjectives and perception modifiers: Lousy=-20, Poor=0, Average=+20, Good=+40, Very Good=+80, Excellent=+100
They get 4 sense descriptions: hearing, daylight vision, night vision, and smell. You could modify as you see fit.

On the opposed roles and modifiers, be careful about double-counting. Dark lighting gives a -30 to perception, and a +30 to hiding. Why is hiding easier in the dark, if not because it makes one harder to perceive? Any category or condition that has a modifier for both of the opposing skills should only really be applied once.

The mods for the senses and the 4 types look good to me.

Wasn't there an option where instead of opposed rolls for stalking/hiding vs perception, it was a success on stalking/hiding modified the perception difficulty? i.e. you roll really well on hiding and it increases the difficulty of a sight or sound based perception maneuver, but does nothing for a scent or presence based perception maneuver?

I would say that in darkness, it is not hide so much as it would be stalk. If it is dark enough that they can't see you, then it becomes more about not letting them hear you, and thus escape notice. As I was reading the OP I thought about this. Sort of using a modified Base Spell Attack Table to reflect what modifier might be garnered. And for the times when a character wants to make an active check, this could work well. But, for when it is more about passive use then the 50+skill total for a base is a pretty good method.

As for the different types of senses (super smell, presence sense, thermal vision, etc...) that is, like many things, the GMs call. For myself, I would try to work it this way: when the PCs first encounter a foe they know little about, many of their normal uses for skills will not always work as they normally do, and will often incur a negative mod because of that. But, once they get to know the capabilities of these foes, these mods go away as they adapt their technique to fit the new situation. Sneaking vs Infravision, for example, could easily be ruled impossible until the PCs know about the Infravision and how it works. At which point, they may start out with a negative mod which could go down as they gain more and more experience dealing with that particular situation.