Author Topic: Dealing with Unlife Corruption  (Read 3240 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« on: February 27, 2021, 11:40:15 AM »
So, I'm starting a new campaign in Shadow World and one of my players wants to use some of the Evil spell lists. This actually works well with the overarching plot of the game, so although the Evil lists can be very powerful, I want to try to figure out a way to balance his use of these lists. (I'm playing RMU by the way).

I've already said that he won't have access to all the Evil lists -- he's probably only going to have access to one or two, and will have to find teachers or scrolls for any further ones.

I remember some old ways of dealing with this, but they seem a bit impractical. I think there was one that you have separate PP for Evil lists, and the more you use them, the more you are dominated by the Unlife. That's cool as a general principle, but in practice... how do I make this work? I want him to realize that using these lists is slowly selling his soul... but also to learn, through the use of them, how horrific the Unlife is. So I want him to be able to use them occasionally, but with some sort of negative consequence that gradually reveals the nature of the Unlife.

Any thoughts?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Amano

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 301
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2021, 12:32:07 PM »
Shadow world magic is visible and colour coded IIRC. Use of evil spell lists would be obvious to any observers, severely limiting their use (don’t let him learn Darkness).

I have been toying with the idea of an evil essence user recently but the RMU lists are quite potent so I think I will use the concept for a BBEG rather than a PC. Which lists are you thinking of allowing him to have?

Offline B Hanson

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rolemasterblog
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2021, 12:41:48 PM »
Hurin:

1. Are you differentiating between evil lists that might be available via the Dark Gods of Charon and evil lists that come from the Unlife?
2. Another issue that has been raised in the past, how does the player continue with the PC when they lose any agency as a servant of the Unlife?
www.RolemasterBlog.com
Other stuff I've written: https://tinyurl.com/yxrjjmzg
Files Uploaded: https://tinyurl.com/y47cfcrc

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2021, 01:45:49 PM »
Which lists are you thinking of allowing him to have?


Evil Channeling: Wounding is the main one so far. He is playing a Druid who is fascinated by healing but also its opposite, kind of like Maester Qyburn in Game of Thrones, if that means anything to you.

The thing is: some of those Evil lists are not that much more powerful than normal lists. So I think this could work, so long as I control which specific lists he gets access to.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2021, 01:54:47 PM »
Hurin:

1. Are you differentiating between evil lists that might be available via the Dark Gods of Charon and evil lists that come from the Unlife?

Hmmm... I hadn't really thought of that. It might be a useful distinction if it allows this to work. But see next question's answer below:

Quote
2. Another issue that has been raised in the past, how does the player continue with the PC when they lose any agency as a servant of the Unlife?


Well, that's the whole issue. The previous mechanics seem to be all-or-nothing. You get these great new powers with their own pool of powerpoints, and use them until one day you essentially lose total control of your character, and that's it.

I'm hoping for a more granular option, where he suffers some more moderate penalties/drawbacks/downsides to using these spell lists right from the start. So the idea is he will be able to use them but at a balanced cost.

So maybe something like, he starts being partially affected by spells that detect/target/harm undead. Or he suffers constitution loss until he can get to a shrine or be blessed. Something specifically tied to how many powerpoints he's spending on his Evil spells would be especially good.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline B Hanson

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rolemasterblog
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2021, 02:22:25 PM »
Well, the simpler route is just to have him get evil spells via a dark god. he/she will eventually "owe" the god allegiance, but you don't have the character being completely subsumed by the unlife
www.RolemasterBlog.com
Other stuff I've written: https://tinyurl.com/yxrjjmzg
Files Uploaded: https://tinyurl.com/y47cfcrc

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2021, 02:42:11 PM »
Well, the simpler route is just to have him get evil spells via a dark god. he/she will eventually "owe" the god allegiance, but you don't have the character being completely subsumed by the unlife

That's a pretty good idea. That might work.

I still would like to hash out a system for Evil lists tied to the Unlife if possible. I am thinking that maybe casting Evil spells cost hits equal to the level of the spell, to represent the toll the Evil takes on the life force of creatures.
          Then I guess maybe once they reach thresholds -- say 100 hp lost (100 levels of Unlife spells), then 500 hp, etc. -- some special event would take place to show that there will be a greater cost... I'm just not sure what form that even could take.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2021, 05:34:28 PM »
I did a search(es) (that were not that helpful) as I remember this same question being asked about the Druid, Evil Spell Lists and Wounding Spell List but did not get the results that I remember discussing in various forums (RM all, General and RMU).

From past discussions:
Note: I know nothing about RMU: JDE so I cannot comment on those issues.
 
1) Evil Spell lists are more then just different spell lists and the various mechanisms in game (RM any) are really not for players. There are some rules spread out in various books and you need to do a deep dive in the books as info in often hidden in sections that are not titled appropriately.
2) I do not remember where the rule was but there was a rule that stated Healers could learn 3 versions of their base lists, ones printed in book, ones that affected others and ones that did the opposite of healing (ie damage).
3) The issue I and other have pointed out in the past is what does the divine being or other entity, think or do to give you the power and what effect does that have on the PC and you game.

My Past Experiences with Evil Spell lists and players:
I general I have played in games and allowed players to use evil spell lists at one time or another, and in general the outcome has been received poorly by the rest of the group.
The games have been with the same and different groups as well as having talked to others who have used evil spell list in their game.
In general in RM 1-2-C, RMSS/FRP it is best to either have an all evil group or no evil group.

In the past Druid notes:
1) I remember someone saying they thought the Druid lists were weak for their group and wanted a more damaging list. I remember that others and I recommended testing just swapping spell lists and/or using a spell list and just making it weaker then the other list, ie an evil spell at rank 2 would be at rank 3-5 for non evil (note in general depending on power of spell in question and vs other spells in the game).

MDC

MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2021, 07:39:37 PM »
Thanks for the perspective Mark.

I've made RMU versions of some old lists (Druidstaff, Insect Mastery, and Stone Mastery) precisely to provide the RMU Druid with some offensive punch. So that's not a problem. But he does still want to use an evil list or two, since it fits with his character concept, and in fact it really fits well into the plot of the campaign, so I'm going to try to make it work.

In regards to the general idea, I am leaning towards this: Casting an Evil spell will cost hit points in addition to power points. These hit points can be healed normally, but once the caster gets to certain thresholds of use (say 100 used, or equivalent of all his PP used), the hit points will stop healing, and the caster will have to go to a Cleric to get a Heal Life Essence spell cast on him.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2021, 09:11:40 PM »
Hits and PP for spells and abilities:
I think if you look at Star Wars D6 they used a rule like this and there was lots of comments about it.
The Life Essence may or may not be a big deal in the game. How easy is it to attain? Are their any social, magical and or other consequences? Can it happen more then once? Why can it happen at all?

In general when is he/she/they going to cast the evil spells?
Why, is this important?

People are going to notice as they effects are different, the spell casting hand, verbal and body motions generally are different from the normal Druids base lists.
How do they explain that they have a non evil list that is giving the same effects as a evil list?
>It is not just you do 1d10 damage and that is fine, spell effects generally have some visual and or magical residue associated with them and even if a spell does 1d10 from another list the reason is different. (examples; wounding d10: cut and or gash, fire d10 burn redness blistering, frost d10: burn, chill, etc) the damage is the same but how it is done and what it looks like is different.

So in general in most RM games I have played in and talked to others about, you have to disguise evil spell list casting and effects in some way. Also even things you might consider good effects such as healing come with hidden evil effects (corruption, soul damage, alignment shifts, reduced effects of good spells, etc)
There are some rules in The Shades of Darkness, IIRC that deals with some stuff like this but from memory I thought they needed more detail added to them. 

The first time I remember this question was about a year after I heard the term "special snowflake" being thrown around a lot for a type of PC and or player who likes certain PC types and the issues that this can cause in games.
I see also that you adapted Druid Staff (RM2) and the other list I think I thought might be applicable was the Wyrd Bow from the GuildCompanion.com.
I do not remember but is the Druid a Channeling caster? If so why does their deity/power still provide spells?   

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2021, 09:24:52 PM »

I see also that you adapted Druid Staff (RM2) and the other list I think I thought might be applicable was the Wyrd Bow from the GuildCompanion.com.

Yep, I've adapted both of them.

Quote
I do not remember but is the Druid a Channeling caster? If so why does their deity/power still provide spells?   

Yes, Druid is a Channeling caster.

Good question about the deity. I've always seen Druids more as worshipping nature rather than a big guy with a beard, and nature can be brutally indifferent... but the Unlife is inherently unnatural, true.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2021, 09:35:38 PM »
As I said I do not know RMU: JDE but...
It has been described in past editions of core rules that the list provides the mechanics and or frame work needed to cast the spell. So if a spell is on two different lists they are cast differently but the effects are the same.
If you are playing RM where their is little to no difference in the realms or if the base list idea is different in RMU: JDE then their maybe no difference and it may be tough to tell one wound from another.
But in general if a game is designed this way I have tended to see long term issues with play. Even if players ignore the information about the differences (in general) the designers not dealing with it in the design phase tends to affect other aspects of the system.
Where I have seen it not be as much an issue is in games that last 1-24 months (playing every week or two on average), longer then this I have seen the general lack of interest by players unless players have no issues having no control over their PCs. ie they have the illusion that they have control and options but they do not and are fine with that in their game.

MDC       
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2021, 09:49:25 PM »
Without looking up the details in RMSS, you can accumulate corruption points. When you encounter a sufficiently powerful evil entity, the percent chance you will be controlled by that entity is your number of corruption points. So a little corruption creates a small chance you will be controlled. Control might not be 100%, it might be that the PC sees that NPC as a friend and ally, like Charm Kind. Perhaps that entity's statements are treated as Suggestions as well. So you have a character that is increasingly at risk of being influenced by darkness, but not someone who simply flips over and becomes an evil NPC (which is not that interesting for the player).

You could also take that number of corruption points as the percent chance that the character will misinterpret good characters. Maybe if those rolls are failed, you describe the goodly character as looking at them and scowling, giving bad advice that is obviously malicious, etc. Twist their impressions of situations.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2021, 10:08:30 PM »
Again just to be clear I do not know anything about RMU:JDE so the info below may be unhelpful:

1) House Rules can have a huge impact on your idea.
In general nature can be described as harsh, unforgiving and bountiful but in your game if that is the same as evil and good then you can do anything.

Thinking about undead and necromancy from another thread, in RM (past) animating undead generally used energy that was harmful to life...but you can also use another method such as golems and automation (automatons) that use bone that use different energy and a different spell list (higher rank spells to do the same thing IIRC) to do the same thing as the necromancer.
The point above is that their are two different ways to do essentially the same thing but one has negative aspects in low rank spells and the other requires higher rank spells and not as many results (IIRC, the automation spell lists do not provide the numbers that low level create undead do).
MDC 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2021, 10:46:30 PM »
So Markc reminded me (probably unintentionally) that I should take a look at what RMU actually says about this. There is an interesting suggestion in the Customizing Magic section of Spell Law (2.8):

One method to handle the Evil spell lists is to treat them as morally corrupting in the manner that follows. Each of the Evil lists is linked to a specific vice: greed, cowardice, disloyalty, spite, etc. Each list might be constantly tied to a particular vice: Darkness to dishonesty, Essence Twisting to arrogance, Disease to slovenliness, and so on. Alternatively, the associations might vary from individual to individual, with Faceless Jack becoming vain from his studies of Demonic Pacts, while his rival Mary Malice suffers gluttony as a result of learning that same list. Whenever an opportunity arises to express one of the vices that the character has as a result of delving into the Dark Arts, but the player of that character (or the GM on behalf of an NPC) wishes to declare some other action that does not express that vice, the character must make an RR (modified only by SD bonus and, possibly, circumstances) against the corrupting effect of the relevant list (treat ranks in the list as the level of the "attack") or act according to that vice instead.

So, rather than becoming increasingly controllable, you and the player could pick a vice that is related to the spell list, and they will become more and more prone to acting accordingly. In the case of the Wounding list, which is all about causing physical harm, an obvious choice might be sadism, but depending on where you feel like the power of evil magic comes from, it could be any quality that fits that source. And you could use NPCs who are more advanced in that magic as examples of what people are like when they go down that road.

That has a lot of roleplay potential, it doesn't make the character unplayable, and it can come up at any time rather than being dependent on encountering evil entities.

System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2021, 11:41:43 PM »
Thanks guys!

JDale: those are two great suggestions. I like them both!

The corruption points thing could maybe be applied as a penalty to any RRs vs. Evil magic or controlling magic from evil entities.

The character thing is fun and I like it better than just getting totally controlled, though the mechanics are a little more arbitrary than I would normally like (I like hard, crunchy numbers). But it definitely has some roleplaying potential.

Cool, I have some things to think about!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2021, 02:49:34 PM »
Good Deal. Sounds like the stuff in RMU-JDE has some information that is different then past versions of RM.

I also remember recently rdanhenry describing his RMU game or a RMU game in which all open and closed lists were in a big pool and their was only a central spell casting mod list and it did not vary by realm (past RM).
This is very different from many/most RM games but there was a couple of people RM2 and RMSS who said they just used the Everyman or Layman professions for all PC's and IIRC one played in a ShadowRun type game and the other was a traditional fantasy game. It seemed that they were not persistent rule changes just changes just changes for that setting/campaign.
I myself tried the one profession to rule them all in a 1-3 day kill everyone game that was interesting but not a lot of fun as IMHO there were things that were easily exploited by the rule change.   

Bad Emotions for Evil:
I do not know about the rule but it sounds to me like it can be abused by players as being tough to enforce by GM's but again the proof is in the pudding or there needs to be a simple way to enforce it in game and not just words on a page or left up to every GM to enforce in a way they decide.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2021, 03:35:36 PM »
Personal stories with evil:
1) I had a player play almost the same PC, Healer that was a sadist and used a whip as a weapon, I explained before PC gen how I thought this might be a problem in game as well as how his actions in game could cause issues (the game/setting was very loosely based on Birthright using RMSS) and it killed the group, the only thing that saved the group was I allowed divine intervention rolls (IIRC it needed to be over 200+) and the other channeling player rolled a 270+, which saved the group and with an option to also save the PC who killed them all.
The player went on to kill the group.

2) A person I played with played but not that game, had a PC in which their goal was to defile and sacrifice the rest of the group. As you can imagine since this player was more familiar with the rules and setting he sort of took advantage of the rest of the players good nature and the goal of working together vs a hidden agenda everyone for themselves game.

There are other examples but I think I will leave it there.

The above are examples IMHO of the special snowflake problem as well as an common issue I will explain below. The special snowflake issue can be minor or major in the above cases and often take advantage of the fact below.

Common Unwritten Rule:
The Players are not their PC's and the PC's are not the players:
I like others I have seen, talked to and played with have fallen afoul of this simple rule. Basically most of the errors I and others have committed were the fact that PC's have knowledge that the players do not and how to provide that to the player.  So in the OP case, PC's have knowledge about what lists each profession should have as well as what lists (and the relative effects of each list) should provide the players info even if the players do not ask about it.
Can there be cases where it is not as big an issue as in evil in the party but unless the group is informed that this is an issue it can cause huge problem. Another good example of this is if you suddenly allow a players character to steal from the group and not inform other players that this is a possibility, vs the often unwritten rule that you do not steal from the group.
In general I find when I deviate from players expiations of game play I explain exactly what those deviations are clearly before the start of PC gen as well as at times during the game.

Does that make sense?
MDC

PS. I have also seen the Piazo sin system in play and was not really enthused as to the effects on the group I was conversing with the GM about. That is just one case but it really tore the group apart and caused issues as well as bad or poor behavior.
MDC   
 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2021, 04:28:11 PM »
Parents and Younger Players:
I know of a few parents that check what things they allow their kids to do and or monitor/watch for changes in their kids behavior (negative and positive) based on activities and allow or disallow those activities based on their children's behavior changes.
This can be a issue for any rpg game or other activity. For example I know a couple of parents that had to remove some cartoons from their kids watch list do to negative behavior generated by those cartoons, I also heard about some game stores seeing significant drops in org play during the sin cycle for Pathfinder or a drop in attendance do to parents finding out after the fact what their kids were participating in. 
I understand as I said above how difficult it can be for game devs in this area but how many parents do you think might say "play this game instead of RMU-JDE because of this ruling?" How many new potential players can RMU-JDE lose because of this as the goal is to attract players and not prevent them from playing.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Dealing with Unlife Corruption
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2021, 04:45:47 PM »
I appreciate the advice, but it should not be a problem for our group. We're all 40+ and have played together for more than 15 years. The player does not intend to subvert the group.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle