Topic: Channeling Companion: Training Packages and TP spell lists

[Ecthelion]

Hi,

the RMSS/RMFRP companion books for the different realms introduced the concept of Training Package (TP) Spell Lists with a special progression of 8/8/8 for Arms Users, 6/6/6 for Semis and 4/4/4 for Pure/Hybrid spell users. While the Essence Companion and Mentalism Companion have some dedicated TP Spell Lists and each TP containing ranks from such lists has these under the "Spell Lists - Own Realm TP" category, the Channeling Companion is different in this aspect. While it explicitly explains the concept of TP Spell Lists in the foreword of the TP category, all Spell Lists ranks granted by TPs are from existing Channeling Spell Lists (Open/Closed/Base) and are listed in the TPs as "Spell Lists - Own Realm Open" category. They always contain a note that the lists may be developed as an Open Spell List, regardless of the caster's realm.

My question is whether this handling of Spell Lists contained in TPs in Channeling Companion is somewhat outdated or whether it was a deliberate decision to handle TP Spell Lists differently in Channeling Companion? Especially for e.g. a Fighter it does make a huge difference whether the special Spell List he may develop due to his TP costs 20 DPs per ranks as an Open List or 8 as a TP List.

Personally I would tend to use the ruling exactly as written in Channeling Companion (i.e. ranks for these lists cost DPs as spells in the Open Spell Lists category not as in the cheaper TP Spell Lists category), which makes developing these lists a bit more costly. But in contrast to the TP Spell Lists from Essence or Mentalism Companion, which IMHO a generally quite "weak", the Spell Lists available with the TP from Channeling Companion seem more powerful, thereby justifying higher DP costs.

How do others handle this?

Thanks in advance

[markc]

I use the rules in the Ess Comp and Ment Comp for all TP spell lists, as they came out after the Ch Comp.


In general I have not found the Ch TP spell lists to be more powerful then the other realms, especially if you have some boundaries on worshiping a power and what you need to do to get the Ch TP list. ie in my game you just can not say I want it and spend the DP.


MDC

[markc]

I also seem to remember (from somewhere, could be a home rule and or a discussion from somewhere) that the idea of develop the TP list as you would and open list, meant that you did not have to take the TP.


You should send Cory Magel (Spelling ?) a PM and see what he had in mind as he worked on the book and may have some good incite as to an answer to your question.


MDC

[Cory Magel]

I think what happened here is that the only TP Spell lists (and not just existing spell lists granted in a TP) we'd seen when initially working on the Channeling Companion were the ones in Castles & Ruins, which tended to be existing spell lists or oriented to crafting trade-skill material. Remember that the Essence, Channeling, and Mentalist Companions were each written by three sets of freelance writers.

Honestly, even if we knew in advance the Essence Companion was working on Training Package spell lists (we hadn't seen it when we started working on the Channeling Companion) I don't think we would have gone that route since there's already a large number of Channeling specific spell lists intended for customizing your Channeling using characters already and we were already cutting material we wanted to use due to page count limitations.

If we'd had the time and page limit raised you probably could have seen a book at least 50% larger. A Channeling Monk variant, discussing creating your own religions, Avatars, etc.

[Ecthelion]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

@Cory: So that means you prefer the route you've taken with Channeling Companion and would suggest to use the rules there and develop the Spell Lists from the TPs as Open Spell List?

[Cory Magel]

I differentiate between spell list ranks provided in a Training Package and actual, official, Training Package Spell Lists.

So, if it's an Open spell list that they were given ranks for in a Training Package, I'd make them pay Open spell list costs for their profession.  If it actually says 'TP Spell List' at the top of the spell list I'd let them pay the TP Spell List cost for their profession.

Training Package Spell Lists really aren't all that powerful. You can get some good use in certain situations if you're creative, but I still do not think they are on par with Open Spell lists.

Oh, and keep in mind my point of view is from an RMSS perspective.

[markc]

Ecthelion,


Where my confusion was:
I had a chance to look at my Ch Comp book and I see where my confusion to your question was. I assumed that for some reason you were trying to take a Spell List: classified as Training Package Spell List (possible options TP, Open, Closed, Base) by not buying the TP.


What you were asking:
In various TP's in Ch Comp, it states that Priest Base Lists can be learned as Ch Open lists if taken as part of a TP.
So if the above is true can you build a TP that changes other Professions Base Lists to Open by building a TP with them as part of it?


IMHO, the Priest spell lists are fairly limited in scope and most of them I do not have a problem if they are learned as open lists, if taken as part of a TP.
But in general I think a rule that states any Profession Base List that is part of a TP can be learned as an Spell List Open classification is a huge mistake and unbalancing.
Could you have some Profession Base Lists that are not unbalancing as Open Spell List DP costs? I would say yes but I would have to take them as a case by case basis and some thought. Right now I would say maybe some of the Bard Base lists could work as Open Lists as part of a TP.


Does that make sense?


MDC     

[Ecthelion]

So, if it's an Open spell list that they were given ranks for in a Training Package, I'd make them pay Open spell list costs for their profession.  If it actually says 'TP Spell List' at the top of the spell list I'd let them pay the TP Spell List cost for their profession.

Actually in many cases, e.g. for the Protector TP or the Theurgist TP it says Priest Base List  . But especially for these more powerful Spell Lists it makes sense to not use the "cheap" TP Spell List category but to have them developed as Open Spell Lists as stated by the categorization given in the TP.

Training Package Spell Lists really aren't all that powerful. You can get some good use in certain situations if you're creative, but I still do not think they are on par with Open Spell lists.

Oh, and keep in mind my point of view is from an RMSS perspective.

Yep, thanks. Also playing RMSS/RMFRP  .

...
What you were asking:
In various TP's in Ch Comp, it states that Priest Base Lists can be learned as Ch Open lists if taken as part of a TP.
So if the above is true can you build a TP that changes other Professions Base Lists to Open by building a TP with them as part of it?

That's an interesting idea, but was not really the point of my question. My point was only about the classification of spell lists of TPs listed in Channeling Companion. E.g. the Theurgist TP grants ranks in the Concussion's Ways list and either the Battlefield Healing or Holy Defenses list. The TP description for these lists says that the ranks for these lists are granted in the Spells - Own Realm Open category (the "own" is interesting for a non-Channeling user btw.), but in the other two realm Companion books such spell ranks would typically be in the TP Spell Lists category. Therefore my question was whether the categorization in Channeling Companion was intentionally differing from that in Essence Companion or Mentalism Companion.

IMHO, the Priest spell lists are fairly limited in scope and most of them I do not have a problem if they are learned as open lists, if taken as part of a TP.
But in general I think a rule that states any Profession Base List that is part of a TP can be learned as an Spell List Open classification is a huge mistake and unbalancing.
Could you have some Profession Base Lists that are not unbalancing as Open Spell List DP costs? I would say yes but I would have to take them as a case by case basis and some thought. Right now I would say maybe some of the Bard Base lists could work as Open Lists as part of a TP.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely. If I were to create a new TP I would take care to not mess up the balancing by adding too powerful spell lists as cheap TP lists.

[markc]

My experience with the Thurgist has been very positive and was the TP I looked at when I quickly poped open the book to see what you were asking was what I was remembering.


In general most priest base lists I have found no problem with in my game, and linking them to a TP and letting players buy the Priest Base List as Open Chan Spell Lists also is no issue.


I jumped to the Profession Base list to Open Realm list DP cost thought as in the past that was what people often were asking about.


MDC

[markc]

I remembered some House Rules that may or may not help.


1) I offered the alchemist base spell lists as TP spell lists in a few games, no one took them so I do not have any good feedback for you but I do not think it would have been an issue do to DP sacristy. After level 12+ I think that is where I would have started to see some more specialization and player would have taken the alchemist TP option.


2) At one time I was working on having each paladin have some core base lists (3 or 4) and then other lists that were deity dependent. I did not finish the project though.


3) Another idea I had was for Paladins to specialize in a specific area (healing, exorcism, undead, crafting, magic, etc) and thus be more focused in one area and as generalized. But again I did not finish the project and decided to go another direction.
Note: the healing option was more like a full healer or lay healer with 2 combat base lists and a requirement that they had to spend DP every level in specific areas. This was to balance the fact they had 7 or 8 base lists.


MDC   

[Cory Magel]

The Channeling Companion Priest Base Lists included the Training Packages were pretty mild in power.  I'd say The Hunter was the most powerful and if you look at the skill costs involved in both buying the package in the first place and the Open Spell List costs for the related profession, it's not really earth shattering by any measure.