Author Topic: Gunpowder in Middle Earth  (Read 1478 times)

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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« on: February 09, 2020, 10:25:52 AM »
Does it exist?

If yes, why doesn't it get used?

If not, is there a good in game explanation I can give? I have engineers as playere and I can shove "because " down their throats if needed. I'd rather not.
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Offline Amano

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2020, 11:56:27 AM »
There are fireworks, and Saruman’s blasting fire, so basically yes.

I would have it as a secret known in the Far East, for fireworks. Saruman’s discovery of its military applications died with him...

Offline jdale

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2020, 06:37:41 PM »
>There are fireworks, and Saruman’s blasting fire, so basically yes.

Those aren't necessarily "gunpowder" per se. They could both involve magic.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2020, 11:14:37 PM »
One could reasonably introduce crude rockets into Middle-Earth (that's just basically an aggressive fireworks show). Firearms or even cannon don't appear to have been in development. As such, the term "gunpowder" would not be in use.

Gandalf's fireworks are clearly magically augmented, as are his smoke rings on occasion, but they do not appear to be his unique secret. In "A Long-Expected Party", hobbit-children recognize his fireworks for what they are as he carts them in and none of them were old enough to have seen one of his displays before. This strongly suggests they had seen lesser fireworks. One also may note that his supply includes "dwarf-candles, elf-fountains, goblin-barkers"... names that suggest several peoples had their own firework-makers (and goblins are noted in The Hobbit as loving things that explode).
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 02:57:01 PM »
Thanks everyone! I let the player know that something akin to gunpowder exists but is used for entertainment and has not been weaponized. the explanation is akin to "do you want a reload pouch for a musket when the guy beside you knows fire bolt?" Or a stockpile of it for cannons?
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2020, 03:31:24 AM »
I think your player is missing the point.
1) Gun powder for fireworks exists but clearly only to initiates so restricted or else the 'The Hobbit' etc would have many references to firework displays. The Noldor should have been employing it but perhaps wisdom has stopped them.
2) If a fireball is common then why does Gandalf choose to use small conjurations augment fire? For that matter, Saruman could cast the odd fireball but doesn't. Also, Sauron (a fire Maia) does not do so either. A debate on magic in Other Minds or Other Hands probably covers some of this.
3) The fire of Orthanc is some form of explosive but we never find out what (except that like many weapons of mass destruction, Tolkein despises it). Yes I know the films show black powder but the books mention nothing.
4) Even the Orcs (masters of horrible contraptions) have not mastered casting of metal to make artillery (canons and the like). Hence rifles and the like are also unavailable.
In short, if your players want a more Medieval setting, then turn to Warhammer Fantasy Settings to fulfil your wish to have a dwarf with a blunderbuss. :) ;)

Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2020, 03:32:51 AM »
One could reasonably introduce crude rockets into Middle-Earth (that's just basically an aggressive fireworks show). Firearms or even cannon don't appear to have been in development. As such, the term "gunpowder" would not be in use.

Gandalf's fireworks are clearly magically augmented, as are his smoke rings on occasion, but they do not appear to be his unique secret. In "A Long-Expected Party", hobbit-children recognize his fireworks for what they are as he carts them in and none of them were old enough to have seen one of his displays before. This strongly suggests they had seen lesser fireworks. One also may note that his supply includes "dwarf-candles, elf-fountains, goblin-barkers"... names that suggest several peoples had their own firework-makers (and goblins are noted in The Hobbit as loving things that explode).

Or they could have just been fanciful descriptions of the fireworks just as we use the terms Catherine Wheel and Roman Candle.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Gunpowder in Middle Earth
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2020, 09:55:26 AM »
Thanks everyone! We opted to not allow them. It just doesn't fit Middle Earth. Maybe if we ever do a campaign in the late 4th age. Then we can explore the effects firearms have one warfare in a magical setting.

As to fireballs, we use Rolemaster rules so magic levels are higher than base Middle Earth. At least on a personal "I'm a mage" level. Magic item availability in ME is fairly high, with loads of characters having some sort of weapon.
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