Topic: Lord Research Restriction

[markc]

IMHO you are gathering energy from an external source in all cases.
  IMHO Channeling is the only source that would be able to receive or generate PP in a magic dead zone. Because they the channelers are given there PP by their deity.
  IMHO Essence users pull their PP from their surroundings and store it in there body, Mentalism users need magic lay lines (very small ones not big Earth Node ones) to generate their PP and then store it in their body.
  If the "storage" idea was not built into the system then Essence and Mentalism users would have no PP every time they entered a no magic zone.   


 There are also quite a few topics on the nature of magic in the archives so you may want to look there for more info.
MDC

[Peter R]

I'm not sure it needs an explanation. Lord Research is a spell. Either you have the spell or you don't. If you don't, you have some other spell.

But that said, if you want it in Mentalism, make a new spell list that is similar to Symbolic Ways and Rune Mastery. I suggest the list be about embedding spells in specially prepared crystals, mentally-resonant crystals are a common trope and also fit right in with the idea of breaking down gems for power.

I think this would be very dangerous to introduce without extensive play testing.

As an example... I have a 15th level illusionist. I have 45 natural power points, a x3 multiplyer giving me 135 and +3 in adders. I try and cast my most powerful phantasms from the spell adders so they give me up to another 45 power points worth. The character is a big fan of runes and has always scoured every town and city for rune paper and over his career has accumilated 30 sheets. I have created runes for all the spells in the 5th - 7th level range that I use most often. My 'journal' is storing about 180 additional power points worth of spells I can call on at any time. I have probably spent no more that 60gp on rune paper but it gives me more power than thousands of gold pieces worth of adders and multipliers. Admittedly it is different as I can only store lower level spells there but it still extends my operational limits. I can fight from it as I have runes of summoning. I can fly, go invisible, long door. I can cast all the mirage spells. I can deal with locks and traps. The mix of spells reflects what I actually do as I made the runes to meet my own needs. That is an essence user using one of the core spell lists.

Mentalists do not have this ability to create power storing items, runes or symbols for a reason and that is balance. I love mentalists and I find them one of the most rounded and capable classes already. If you give me a few hundred extra power points to play with then I wouldn't turn them down and as soon as I became capable of storing 9th and 10th level spells you would have a fairly unstopable force on your hands. How many crystals would a 20th level mentalist have acquired and if they are holding 10 power points each how many hundreds of power points are you handing out?

Unbalance destroys fun. Either because the mentalist's colleagues end up as little more than cannon fodder or a baggage train or the GM is required to ramp up the tasks to challenge you but are overkill for the rest of the party. If you ever read the X-men comics the first thing that happens at the start of every story is that Professor X gets taken out because the character has become so powerful that the rest of the X-men are irrelevent unless he is disabled.

[Peter R]

You can't draw mental energy from rock.

Surely all energy is interchangeable. Rub two sticks together conferring kinetic energy and you can start a fire giving off heat energy to put it crudely.

Grab a couple of big lumps of pitchblend and start banging them together and see how much excitement it causes in your closest friends.

[Cory Magel]

Surely all energy is interchangeable. Rub two sticks together conferring kinetic energy and you can start a fire giving off heat energy to put it crudely.

There's no 'surely' about it.  Obviously everyone can do it their own way, I was just describing my 'in game' explanation of why you might not be able to use Lord Research as a Mentalism user.  No, you don't HAVE to give a reason, but a GM that routinely does not have logical explanations will likely find themselves out of a group.  If you can't come up with a reason other than balance (which is a fine reason) then no biggie, but if you can come up with a reason, so much the better.

Again, I treat Mentalism essentially as Psionics.  You cast using your own mental energy to fuel your 'magic'.  So, what you describe is not mental energy.

My explanations...
Essence you are using elemental force/energy to create an effect.
Channeling you are using other living beings force/energy to create an effect.
Mentalism you are using your own mental force/energy to create an effect.  Your own mental energy does not come from a rock (unless you're Biff from Back to the Future).

[Peter R]

I liked the Spell Law description "Mentalism is that realm of power in which the masters of spells strive to use their minds in ways few even contemplate. By using the very personal power locked within themselves, mentalists are able to channel power of the essence through their own mental corridors, thus manipulating and bending reality that surrounds them. In a sense, they act as very minute imitations of the deities above, giving power not to clerics, but retaining it and directing its manipulation with their own minds."

I like to think of mentalists as 'Jedi' but that is just me. I agree with Cory that mentalism is very personal and a scroll or crystal would probably need some sort of medical insertion into the mentalist for it to work. I have no problem with spell adders or multiplyers as these need attuning which is in keeping with the mentalism thing.

I would still be concerned about the balance of play being distorted with the added power of a spell storing list.

[markc]

Peter R,
(it has been a long time since I played RM2 but)

 Is not the official rule 1 PP bonus item in RM2?


 I also am fairly sure (but again I have not played RM2 since 96) that it is not an official rule but at one time it was talked about that rune paper casters could only have their PP worth of spells on paper at one time and some thought it was a good idea to not include bonus items in that number.
 Like you say this is another way to get a multiple of PP for those casters but IMHO I would let (and have in RMSS) have rune paper like lists and items but require more expensive materials.


MDC

[Peter R]

One multiplier but many adders are allowed as far as I am aware. I have never seen a rule on the maximum number of pp in runes. I will check the rules tonight.

[markc]

I know there is a rule that states you can only use 1 adder at a time and not multiples.
MDC

[Peter R]

I have just searched the pdf versions and there are no limits on the number of pp in scrolls/runes in chlaw, spell law or companion 1 to 5.

[markc]

I agree as it was something that came up here on the forums.


So you have scan'd in the RoCo's since they are not for sale on DtRPG?
MDC

[Peter R]

I bought what I could as pdfs and the others I have scanned in some on an as needed basis until I was told on here where to download them. I have all the paper originals. It is so useful having all the rulebooks on my phone.

[Cory Magel]

We probably have 2-3 copies of most books, but I've got almost the entire RMSS library on a thumbdrive about the size of a dime and just bring a lighter laptop with me to games.

We've always done the 1 Spell Adder and 1 PP Multiplier (you can have one of each), but no limit on scrolls.  Stored spells and items tend to have their own build in limitations, so I don't think we've every needed to rule on that.

(Usual disclaimer - RMSS is what I'm most familiar with these days, but they are usually the same on rulings).

[Peter R]

Our group is one GM and four players. We will have four complete sets of books with us and one player brings nothing not even his own dice. I think the last rule book he ever bought was Bushido.

Our GM runs a shadowworld game and he also has the bought pdfs and he has shared the players guide to shadowworld.

Half the books are first edition and the first edition spell law is the most horrible rulebook I have ever seen with its blue pseudo handwritten text.
I run a RM game set in the Forgotten Realms.

I keep the books in dropbox so I have them on my phone, at work and on my home laptop. You just never know when you will need to check something.

We have ruled that you can have one multiplier but you can have multiple adders but you must be actively using it so you must hold a staff or if it was a ring then you would probably aim with that hand.

We have no restrictions on scrolls or how many standing stones a channeler could have enscribed symbols on givdn the time.

[markc]

I agree that having the books at your finger tips is a huge advantage and drop box (or another service of its kind) is very helpful.


Having multiple "bonus" items (ie PP mult or adders) can dramatically alter the power balance of your game, but if it works for you then have fun and I can see the need for something like multiple adders in FR or Grayhawk. (My opinion)
MDC

[Peter R]

I agree that the Forgotten Realms is a very dangerous place but there is also the element of supply and demand. In theory you can carry as many adders as you like in our world but if you don't have them then you are no better off.

After 15 levels of adventuring I have a x3 multiplier (my prized possession), +1 and a +2 spell adder. If everyone was walking around with +10 worth of spell adders then I agree we would have a balance problem.

My first ever experience of role playing was in world of greyhawk and if I still had my rule books then I would have loved to convert it to RM. As it is I am enjoying planning all sorts of horrible things to do to some new characters played by very experienced players in the Forgotten Realms. That is why the only healing the party will have access to is a cleric with a very high chance of ESF. I am pretty sure that the underdark is not the best place to be caring for someone who has just had a stroke.

[jdale]

I see the x3 multiplier as a bigger balance concern than runes or the equivalent, personally. As a GM, I would stick to smaller multiplier values. But every game is different. I suggested the list as a basis if the GM wants to add Lord Research to the realm. There are also other ways to do it, or you might not want to add Lord Research to the realm at all. Whatever works best for your game.

[Peter R]

This has wandered off topic a bit but the point that I was trying to make was that if someone wanted to add this to their campaign then they really needed to consider the game balance issue.

I see the x3 multiplier as a bigger balance concern than runes or the equivalent, personally.

If you roll a treasure up using creatures and treasures and it indicates a spell bonus item (page 65) then a roll of 88+ will give you an item of at least x3 or possibly x4. That is not even an open ended roll. Using the basic special items background option for special item a character can start the game with a +3 adder or a x2 muliplier. If one considers x3 multipliers as unbalancing then the starting player presumeably is starting the game with the best item of that type they can ever possibly have?

The balancing factor, I would imagine, is intended to be  the risk required in acquiring the item and prizing it from the cold dead hand of the evil wizard that had it before you and the chaos he could unleash with that much power.

[Cory Magel]

The multiplier topic, imo, depends almost entirely on player and GM game style.  We've seen x1.5 to up to x3 multipliers in our games (if I recall correctly).
We usually end up ending a campaign around the low to mid teens (13-16th level maybe?), although I'd like to see us go higher.

[Peter R]

Our games lurk around the same levels. I have had one character reach 33rd level but I played that character most weekends for about 15 years. He was the first character created when we first got RM and he was the last surviving character in the campaign. He started as a peasant farmer whos family had been wiped out by bandits and he retired to live a long and happy life as the king of a city state with a family of his own.

In the shadow world game I am playing in the GM started us at 10th level because it is quite a challengine adventure. In that game I am playing a 20th level Thief who is modelled on Bruce Willis from all the Die Hard movies ever made. The GM wanted a powerful group and that is what he got. He gives out very powerful magic items but somehow we still end up reaching the end of level boss down to our last few hits, bleeding profusely with two arrows between us and our warrior left with just a broken fruit knife for the final duel.

I think 9th to 15th level are my favourite to play, the characters are mature enough to developed little quirks that diferentiate them from other generic characters of their profession and the realms of arms and magic are pretty well balanced at that point.

Our group of players have been playing together for the last 36 years. A few have come joined, others have left. We have played high adventure world saving quests wielding powerful magic and low level fighting just to survive type games. Not everyone gets a x3 multiplier, they are not just lying around to be picked up but they do exist. I believe that once I saw a x5 multiplier for Mentalism and no one could use it and we lost it before we could sell it. Thems the breaks.

[markc]

Why could no one use a x5 PPM? In the rules there is no reason any mentalism user could use the item? Unless there is a restriction on the item placed by the GM.
MDC