Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Mungo on December 17, 2005, 07:09:51 AM
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After I read that the metric system will be used for HARP SF, I wonder how many people might want to have that for RM Revised, too.
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I voted for the metric system, but in fact I don't care ( but there's no '' I don't care" option ).
I've been juggling with Imperial system to Metric system conversions for so long that I have most of the common ones engraved in my brain.
I think it's more a question of strategy. UK and the US ( and probably the Aussies too ) are using the Imperial system, while the rest of the world works with the Metric system.
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I think the Aussies use Metric... at least according to Mad Max movie. :)
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Why not use Both?
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I vote imperial cause I'm a dumb American and we're the county in the dark ages of measurement. ;)
cmac has a point however, it would be easy to include both. Things could be listed as: 10 Feet (3.05 Meters).
The biggest problem (course, this is coming from the dumb American) is there's no equivilent of "Feet" in the metric. It's either centimeters or meters.
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I voted Metric, but also would have gone with the "Don't care" or "Both" options. I still tend to use Imperial measurements in my Fantasy Campaigns and Metric in my Sci Fi Campaigns. Being Canadian I grew up with Imperial for the first 14 or so years of my life before Canada switched to Metric, and of course we are next door to the USA so I'm quite comfortable with both systems.
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Don't care
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OK, crunches knuckles.......
In the UK, this is a touchy subject, as our imperial system is slowly being eroded away, and it has to some become a symbol of national pride.
My preference is to use metric for smaller measurments mm, cm and even m, but for larger ones and some more traditional things such as hight i prefer feet and inches, and miles.
Americans use just pounds for wieght, we use stones (14lb) and pounds to describe wieght, though Kg is becoming more common, (spit)
So perhaps both should be used, though I'd run with imperial with a table to convert to metric.
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Not really important to me either way, though SF games do tend to be metric, it would be annoying if there were inconsistancies between RM and SM do to each one using a different measure system. Beyond that is the annoyance of needing to re-write the stats for all the spells and skills into another formet. i.e. range, area of effect, distance, etc. . . .thank god we don't have a time differential between the systems. If this is going to be a generic "Core" around which Genres are wrapped, I'd suggest picking one or the other and sticking with it all the way.
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I voted metric system although we have been playing with the imperial system for ages and got more or less used to it.
However, I would make it depending on the main market for the game. And maybe if you are publishing translations in French, Spanish, Italian, Suomi or German or whatever other languages there are the countries of which use the metric system, the translation could include the metric system.
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The translations had the relevant Imperail measurement translated to Metric. At least that is what I remember of the first French edition. That lead to some interesting moments when people argued over the metric value of 100'.
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Ok, my 9th post to the forums....woo hoo ;D
How about you use the system of the location where you sell more product which would probably be the Imperial system and then offer a conversion chart in the back of the book.
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scary avatar.
i suspect a metric/imperial conversion isn't to hard to get your hands on, no need to add it to the book neccissarily.
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I don't mind playing in Imperial in a fantasy setting... the archaic nature of the system suits a fantasy world... but for a general system... or modern setting, I'd perfer metric.
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Either one would suit me. I use both for my profession but then not many Americans actually know that 1.6Km is roughly 1 mile
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I voted Metric, but also would have gone with the "Don't care" or "Both" options. I still tend to use Imperial measurements in my Fantasy Campaigns and Metric in my Sci Fi Campaigns. Being Canadian I grew up with Imperial for the first 14 or so years of my life before Canada switched to Metric, and of course we are next door to the USA so I'm quite comfortable with both systems.
I didn't vote ...
I like to use Metric for Modern Day or Sci-fi settings, and Imperial for Fantasy campaigns.
This is a flawed poll.
Cormac
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Metric system is fine, If I run I may very well superscede the measurement system with one or more customized to the world anyone. One country measures weight in stones, its neghbors use halflings (thus the on-going war).
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This is a flawed poll.
Yes, it seems the poll is flawed, there's more people wanting Metric system than Imperial one.
The idea of having both system is nice, but it brings some problem about rounding up inches, feets, miles and so on.
It's also true that the Imperial system bring a 'medieval touch' to the whole thing.
All in all, whichever system is chosen, as I said, I don't really care, I've been juggling with the imperial system to metric system conversions for over 20 years for RPG purpose, so it don't matter (4 inches = 10 cm, 100 feet = 30 m, 1 mile = 1.5 Km , yes those are rounded numbers, but it's these numbers I use )
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metric.. more simple and easy. or if its possible both.
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I think the poll is far from flawed...there is a reason metric is the system most countries use.
Additionally if it is possilble for us metric people to convert imperial to metric so can you convert metric to imperial if you want that.
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I think the poll is far from flawed...there is a reason metric is the system most countries use.
Additionally if it is possilble for us metric people to convert imperial to metric so can you convert metric to imperial if you want that.
Did that all the time when I used to play Champions.
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I voted for metric.
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I think we should devise an Aptitudes system to create an entirely new form of measurements. Players could be given 3 choices at character creation that will allow them to customize measurements to their liking. As long as the underlying construction kit is consistent, we wouldn't have to worry about balance between the what in the hell am I talking about.
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I don't care.
Imperial system add some kind of exotism for french players.
Metric is faster and may improve the rythm of the game.
Both will add confusion.
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I don't really care, The imperial system has a better feel for fantasy but I use metric for my geography as a GM since it is a little easier.
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if i want a fantasy feel i create my own system.. metric its faster, everyone when use a calculator find very easier to use metric system and its not difficult to convert.
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In some instances, it makes no difference.
How fast is 150'/rd in mph? in kph? Both are a pain in the neck.
But when you try to figure mass and volume and stuff like that, metric is the way to go.
How many gallons will a 10'x10'x10' room hold?
How many litres will a 3mx3mx3m room hold?
The first question takes a LOT longer to answer. Hell, I can do the second in my head, and I was born, raised, and educated in the states.
If it makes you feel better, call them Scientific Measure... (SI units)
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1000 cu' <chuckle>
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quote author=Sorloc link=topic=356.msg5578#msg5578 date=1135348958]
How many gallons will a 10'x10'x10' room hold?[/quote]
Would that be a US gallon or an Imperial gallon??
Now luckily both are divided into 8 pints, but the US pint is the same as 16 fl oz while the Imperial Pint has 20 fl oz.
You guys can never agree on anything can you??
Metric is the way to go if you want easy math, but stones, pints, hundredwaights, barrels, feet, chains and all the other great measurements sure gove more atsmosphere.
Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_unit#Comparison_of_the_Imperial_and_US_customary_systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_unit#Comparison_of_the_Imperial_and_US_customary_systems) for some details on the not very easy to get around system of measurement the english have given the world, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._customary_units (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._customary_units) for some information on the US sytem.
It's intresting to note that the US system has all its units defined by the SI.
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That's because we USE the SI! Although our great, poorly educated masses use the antiquated and cumbersome Imperial (based) units, our scientific community uses SI - and our scientific community ranks much better on a global scale than our 'huddled masses' do.
(and 1000 cu' is NOT a correct answer - in gallons! :P )
next, at 35?F / 3?C, how much does that water weigh?
again, using metric, I can do it i my head...
Imperial units suck.
If you want color, fine - color it. But the framework should be black and white - easy to read and understand - metric. Easy to use, makes sense, and then all you need to do is come up with your 'colorful' units, and know the conversions (which you'll have to do anyway with Imperial units).
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Official Moderation
Please tone down the discussion. We'd like to keep the exchange of information and opinions at a polite level.
Thank you.
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sorloc i totaly agree with you (i have even give you an "IDEA") we must use a simple system as the basic and if someone "want color" he use other systems.. SETTINGS are different from RULES. I can undestand that someone find easier to use imperial system so or metric or both.. not imperial alone.
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Official Moderation
Please tone down the discussion. We'd like to keep the exchange of information and opinions at a polite level.
Thank you.
Huh?
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sorloc i totaly agree with you (i have even give you an "IDEA") we must use a simple system as the basic and if someone "want color" he use other systems.. SETTINGS are different from RULES. I can undestand that someone find easier to use imperial system so or metric or both.. not imperial alone.
In historical, medieval europe, weights and measures... were a vast agglomeration of random events. Length was measured in feet, yards, cubits, spans, hands, fingers, miles, and days. Not only was there no agreed-upon relationship between those units, but the size of the unit varied from place to place. A Ciezyn yard was not equal to a Cracow yard which was not equal to a Wroclaw yard.
It even varied from commodity to commodity. Fine velvets, for example, were sold by the Troy yard, which was shorter than all of the above. And these weren't minor differences of a few percent. The Wroclaw yard was half again longer then the Cracow yard.
Weights were in even worse shape. Cheese, wheat, and oats were all sold by the quarter, for example. A quarter of what, you ask? Why a quarter of cheese, wheat or oats! There was no "whole" or "half". But a quarter of wheat was more than five times larger than a quaretr of cheese, which was maybe a hundred kilos. And a quarter of oats was bigger than both the others put together. And of course a quarter in one city was not equal to a quarter anyplace else.
Well, a pint of milk weighed a pound, but milk is the stupidest standard possible. The specific gravity of milk varies by at least five percent, with the richest milk being the lightest. It spoils quiclky, so there is no possibility of having a standard jar or jug of milk somewhere.
I've checked on most of this, and it's accurate enough.
It's fine for flavor, but not for GMing. The system needs a good, solid measurement system to use system mechanics with.
A GM may impose whatebver random, haphazard system of weights and measures he choosed to inflict upon his players - as a setting.
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i agree again with sorl.. we jsut have to mess with tables and rules.. at least with the measure system i hope will have something mroe easier.. everytime the sorcerer in my group want to destroy something the problems start..
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Keep it simple keep it metric... and that's why I voted metric.
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If RM revised is going to be a generic system (rather than just a fantasy system) then metric makes sense. Then settings like RM fantasy can be in imperial, and RM SCIFI in metric, etc...
I always advocate soft conversion... (30cm to a foot, 1 yard to a meter, 2 lbs to a Kg) it just doesn't make much sense to do otherwise in a game setting, there just isn't the need for that kind of precision. (I secretly like the way GURPS is split into rules and genre supliments... even though I don't much care for their mechanics.)
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so let's "Keep it Real Keep Rolemaster".. "Keep it Simple Keep it Metric".. :-*
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I've checked on most of this, and it's accurate enough.
It's more than accurate.... in France the stuff varied from almost one town to another.
It mostly depended under whom the country was ruled.... The King(s) [ France and England mainly ] , the Church, the Bourgogne Familly, the Savoie Familly, The Counts of Toulouse and so on....
IIRC between Clermont Ferrand and Vichy ( two French town about 40Km apart, that is one day travel at that time. ) the things changed.
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I like to use Metric for Modern Day or Sci-fi settings, and Imperial for Fantasy campaigns.
Ditto, but would go with metric for ease of use ::)
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Hm I think in metric system, then translating to imperial, but if u say 5'6" i need calculator :) Use metric and i can sold my calc. :P
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For all of you that think the books can include both systems, here are some extracts from the french translation of Spell Law (RM2) (retranslated to english here):
"The caster can increase of decrease the speed of the wind by 1.6km/h. So, if the speed of the wind is 32km/h, a 15th level spell caster can vary the speed between 8 and 56km/h".
"...but for 94cm3 of metal per level."
".. but freeze all solid matter to -17C."
"...and it can reach 90cm x 1.8m with a depth of 30cm/lvl in stone and 7.5cm/lvl in other materials."
I don't think it helped the reputation of RM as being a difficult system... ;D
So please, one system, either metric (I voted for that) or imperial, but with spells and rules that are adapted so that base units are easy to count with.
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That's CLASSIC. . .oh, I laughed loud enough to have co-workers come poking into what was up. . . . .
Ah, never thought of how crazy all those imperial measures, translated metric must look. 94cm3 / Level HAHAHahahahahaha . . . ..
worth a laugh point, and an idea point. . . . .
"Note to ICE, overseas compatability is going to be a mess due to our holding religiously to an archaic system of measures. . . . . .heheheheh"
Then again, I should be laughing at myself. . . .I buy paper for magazines, in the US it's sold in all sorts of arbitrary "basis weight sizes" that I'm convinced were established by papermaking guilds in some obscure time just to make my life difficult. . . . .meanwhile all overseas paper is purchased in Grams per square meter. . . . .
Sigh. . .who'd ever think that feet and pounds would complicate things so?
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Gege - that is funny. You would think that for the ease of conversion some rounding would have helped.
I think that in medieval settings measurements should be in rods, chains, stones, leagues & drams.
I could go with metric if absolutely necessary (I don't think hectare would appear in any spell list) - but only if you leave out the superfluous 'u' in armor, color, etc. in the actual books. Think of the ink you would save.
Hm I think in metric system, then translating to imperial, but if u say 5'6" i need calculator :) Use metric and i can sold my calc. :P
A yardstick would work better for figuring 5'6". ;)
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OK, crunches knuckles.......
In the UK, this is a touchy subject, as our imperial system is slowly being eroded away, and it has to some become a symbol of national pride.
My preference is to use metric for smaller measurments mm, cm and even m, but for larger ones and some more traditional things such as hight i prefer feet and inches, and miles.
Americans use just pounds for wieght, we use stones (14lb) and pounds to describe wieght, though Kg is becoming more common, (spit)
So perhaps both should be used, though I'd run with imperial with a table to convert to metric.
The Imperial/Metric issue in the UK is somewhat unfortunate, as we have a part of our National Pride on the use of a system than logic dictates is highly inferior to the alternative. Myself, I think in Imperial although for my job I use metric and it's far better for doing calculations, particularly in your head. I wish that we had picked a better pole to hang our standard from than the Imperial measurements system, though.
Incidentally, we do use some metric, as do the Americans. Joules and Watts are a metric-based measurement, as are, in fact, calories.
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Soda, we buy soda in liters. . . . . .beer in Ozs. . . hehehe. . .
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Incidentally, we do use some metric, as do the Americans. Joules and Watts are a metric-based measurement, as are, in fact, calories.
Have you taken a look at most Americans (myself included)... we don't bother with calories (if we acknowledge they exist then we can't eat as much!) :P
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Gege - that is funny. You would think that for the ease of conversion some rounding would have helped.
But the problem is that if you do some rounding, you modify the power of the spells ;D I don't think the translators wanted to get into spell list balancing troubles on top of the rest...
Adding: Actually, by my own argument, changing to metric would be a mess since you would want to redesign the power of every spells based on length, area or volume to work at a given level for a simple base unit (not 27dm3!). Whereas keeping imperial units would allow to adjust a bit the existing spells and live with them :(
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for volume, you'd use litres, not m3. It's not too bad, since 1 liter is 1000cm3 (10cmx10cmx10cm).
so, for a 3m x 3m x 3m room (10'x10'x10') holds
300cm x 300cm x 300cm = 27,000,000 litres.
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The meter cubed is a useful unit for many things, but it's a lot of whatever you're measuring. A meter cubed of water weighs a tonne (which is close to the same as an Imperial ton, of course). I tend to use meters cubed, although the liter is also useful (because a liter of water has mass of one kilogramme and I know how a lot of materials compare to water in density).
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The most cool would of course be setting specific units...but all units based on metric units to ease the magic system.
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Here's an American who prefers the metric system ;D It's just cleaner and more internally consistent than Imperial. And who's to say that a fantasy culture can't have a universal base ten system of measurement?
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cubic meters would be better for expressing in smaller numbers... 9 cu meters vs 27 million litres :)
The metric system is simple and elegant. It amazes me that in light of this, it has actually been adopted :/
As for setting, you can use any measurement system you like for flavor, but system stuff should be expressed in units the GM and players can understand, meaning either Imperial or Metric (SI). Of the two, SI is clearly better. For flavor, each culture in your world might have a different system, and some beings might use base-8 as they have three fingers and a thumb, or, as in my world, the ancient stuff in Shadow World uses a base-12 number system, as the K'Ta'Viir has 12 fingers, and also because base-12 is simply better (12 has more factorials than 10, meaning you can divide it more easily, and you run into repeating decimals far less often when doing math. Also, you can express greater quantities with fewer digits - one of the reasons the Arabic system supplanted the Roman system).
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cubic meters would be better for expressing in smaller numbers... 9 cu meters vs 27 million litres :)
The metric system is simple and elegant. It amazes me that in light of this, it has actually been adopted :/
27 million liters is 27 thousand cubic meters. But yet, it makes more sense for anything large. And then there's always cubic kilometers, of course, for when cubic meters just won't do.
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Archaic or not, Imperial is the standard in the U.S. and ICE is a U.S. company. In these days and times, with the limited print runs, I don't see why ICE just doesn't just run off both domestic and export versions. Then you silly European's, and Euro-wanna-bes, can have your silly metric system, and the rest of us (the 'evil' Imperialists, I guess :P) can play with our feet...and inches.
Jason
btw: I think in imperial, but work primarily in metric and have little trouble switching between the two. I would be completely comfortable with using metric in a SF setting, but find it completely anachronistic in a fantasy setting.
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Jason, the problem with running off both versions is that you then require 2 different UPC codes, and distributors tend to look very disfavorably upon multiple versions of the same products...
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maybe ICE should invent it's own universal measurements for Fantasy and Sci Fi, they did it with curency after all :)
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Tim...fair enough.
How about a website-only 'backassward' Special Edition for those of us that would prefer to be stuck in the middle ages ;D.
Or, somewhat as Ictus suggests...just replace all units with variables that will be defined by some table in the front of the book. So a spell range could be listed as d/rnd in which the d would be defined in the beginning of the book as being either 1 foot or .3 meters, etc and so on.
Jason
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Jason, please note that ICE was not the one who started this poll. ;D
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So what do ICE want to do ::)
and I still prefer Imperial... :P
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Since it is a fantasy setting, might as well use the metric system.
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Or, somewhat as Ictus suggests...just replace all units with variables that will be defined by some table in the front of the book. So a spell range could be listed as d/rnd in which the d would be defined in the beginning of the book as being either 1 foot or .3 meters, etc and so on.
I like this idea. Span, cubit, league, fathom etc. could all be used as measurement names. As long as the GM and players have a general idea of what each measurement is in thier own minds, than everything will be shiny.
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I'm certainly in favour of imperial measure when it comes to fantasy games. With modern and science fiction on the other hand, I'm definitely pro-Metric.
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I personally can use both systems equally well, but I use imperial in the real world, so I tend to lean that way, but if the game system is set for metric, its not hard to adjust.
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According to the poll, it is obvious what people want. :)
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Yeah, but us selfish Americans will get what we want regardless of the polls!
I actually see little reason why things couldn't be listed both ways. Unless, of course, the reason is that it actually increases the page count significantly enough that they don't want to.
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It would be pretty easy to come up with a fantasy system of measurement that's base ten. Essentially the metric system disguised in more period-appropriate terminology. A centimeter could be a 'finger' or a 'segment', a decimeter would be a 'palm', a meter would be a 'pace', a gram could be called a 'grain', a kilogram could be a 'mark', a liter a 'gourd' or something like that.
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It would be pretty easy to come up with a fantasy system of measurement that's base ten. Essentially the metric system disguised in more period-appropriate terminology. A centimeter could be a 'finger' or a 'segment', a decimeter would be a 'palm', a meter would be a 'pace', a gram could be called a 'grain', a kilogram could be a 'mark', a liter a 'gourd' or something like that.
I like the sound of that...
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Here's a list that I came up years ago when I got the wild idea:
LENGTH
Jotta (?hair?, not literal; equal to 1 mm) 1/10th Seg
Seg (?finger?; equal to 1 cm) 1/10th Palma; 10 Jotta
Palma (?hand?, equivalent to roughly 4 inches or 10 cm) 1/10th Passus; 10 Segs
Passus (?pace?, equivalent to roughly 40 inches or 1 meter) 10 Palmas
Mile (?thousand?, equivalent to roughly 3300 feet or 1 kilometer) 1000 Passus
VOLUME
Dramus (1 cubic Seg; equal to 1 cubic cm) 1/1000th Ampul
Flagon (standard quantity of ale; equal to 1/2 liter) 500 Drams
Ampyul (equivalent to roughly 34 fluid oz or one liter) 1000 Drams
Barrel (equivalent to roughly 26 gallons or 100 liters) 100 Ampuls
Culun (1 cubic Passus; equal to 1 cubic meter) 1000 Ampuls
MASS
Mica (?grain?; equal to one gram) 1/1000th Lapis
Lapis (?rock?, mass of one Ampyul of water; approx. 2 lbs or 1 kg) 1000 Micas
Stone (common measurement of weight; approx 5 kg or 11 lbs) 5 Lapis
Ton (mass of one Culun of pure water) 1000 Lapis
AREA
Parsum (square measuring 100 Passus on each side; equiv to 1 hectare) 10,000 square Passus
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Yeah, but us selfish Americans will get what we want regardless of the polls!
You guys just aren't satisfied until you rule the world. :P ;) ;D
Akai, very good idea, I like it! :)
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According to the poll, it is obvious what people want. :)
No, according to the poll, it is obvious what 54 people want. There are more than 10 times that number registered who have not voted, and many more who are not even registered on the forums.
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Still the most plausible interpretation of somebody that does not vote would be they don't care if imperial or metric is used, right?
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At least the new forum doesn't allow voting by people who aren't logged-in.
I still don't fully understand why people get so emotional about it (in the UK, for example, where it is a big issue, particularly amongst the 'Little Englanders'). I guess that the current mix of metric and Imperial that the UK (and also the US) has will eventually lapse into metric. As it probably should.
A month before I was born, the UK finally switched over to decimal currency. There was a lot of complaining about it then but I would think that most people prefer the current system now.
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Revised RM: Imperial
Scientists and geeks (around here that isn't an insult) prefer metric as that make it easier to make calculations. For example, when I am working out body mass, kcal expenditure, body fat, etc with a client I use the metric system
People who live in the real world (ie they do not work in IT and are not French) prefer imperial as it is easier to understand and visualise what they mean. For example, when I am guaging someone's running speed outside I will tell them to hold 8 minute/mile pace whilst running or go out and cycle 25 miles. If I say to run at 12.9km/h I would get a blank look.
Harp Sci Fi: Imperial (new imperial)
When the Emperor (direct descendant of/clone/immortalised Bill Gates) starts re-taking his outlying systems the first thing he will do is make his mark by forcing everone to use his operating systems and his new Imperial measures. He will ceratainly wipe out anything to do with the French as they (as the EU) gave him such a hard time in the early 21st century.
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But Emperor Bill has small feet. . . .in the new empire, human males now average 10' tall. . . .
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Grr ... I bet their movement rate is ridiculous.
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People who live in the real world (ie they do not work in IT and are not French) prefer imperial as it is easier to understand and visualise what they mean. For example, when I am guaging someone's running speed outside I will tell them to hold 8 minute/mile pace whilst running or go out and cycle 25 miles. If I say to run at 12.9km/h I would get a blank look.
That is nothing to do with the intrinsic merits of either system, but rather, what people are used to. The UK and the US still use a mix of (mostly) Imperial and metric (as you know, kCal is a metricated unit itself, defined in terms of kilogrammes and degrees centigrade/celsius and Watts and Joules are also metric) but most other countries use metric. In my opinion, though, most British people under about 40 don't know how many yards or feet there are in a mile (and, frankly, their estimates of how far a mile actually is are often completely bizarre) and may not even know how many pounds are in a stone (or ounces in a pound; in fact, the ounce as a unit of measurement is less used than it was even when I was a kid). Miles per Hour is probably about the most significant measurement in Imperial that people really do use a lot, but then, only really when applied to vehicles (in my experience, people in the UK are not so good at judging walking or running speeds in miles per hour unless they are actually runners). Problems with km <--> miles conversions, and I agree with you that they exist, are a sad indictment of the average arithmetical ability in the UK, as a good approximate conversion from miles <--> kilometers is easy.
I would think that Bill Gates, as a nerd, will probably enforce metric, except that it will be given a new code name. And if he's bitter about anyone giving him a hard time, it would be the US Government, rather than that of the EU.
British people would look less stupid if we didn't dig in our heels against the French when the French and nearly everyone else are clearly 100% right. I bet the ancestors of gribble and Ictus were railing against the newfangled Arabic numerals when there was nothing wrong with good old traditional Roman numerals.
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Thanks Smug, I'll try not to be offended at your jibes about my heritage...
(and, frankly, their estimates of how far a mile actually is are often completely bizarre)
Tht would be those that don't exercise reguarly. It takes me 45secs to drive it, 20 mins to stroll it, 10 mins to jog it and 6 mins to leg it.
British people would look less stupid if we didn't dig in our heels against the French when the French and nearly everyone else are clearly 100% right
where to start?
British people never, ever look stupid relative to the lesser nations. We often do things that are derisory by our own standards but not compared to the rest of the world. Particularly since we stood back and said "pkay you can have it back ... see if you can do better without our governance." Its starting to look like you should have left in charge, what?
The French are never, ever right. (I had several paragraphs of eveidence for this but I thought that i would maintaine the "entente cordiale" by not posting them. Neither are any people who agree with them. Period.
I bet the ancestors of gribble and Ictus were railing against the newfangled Arabic numerals when there was nothing wrong with good old traditional Roman numerals
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British people never, ever look stupid relative to the lesser nations. We often do things that are derisory by our own standards but not compared to the rest of the world. Particularly since we stood back and said "pkay you can have it back ... see if you can do better without our governance." Its starting to look like you should have left in charge, what?
I'm sure that the Americans are crying into their weak and tasteless beer over the lack of British governance of the Americas.
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;D
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Grr ... I bet their movement rate is ridiculous.
Well at least they aren't short... short people... no reason .... hmmmmm.
British people never, ever look stupid relative to the lesser nations. We often do things that are derisory by our own standards but not compared to the rest of the world. Particularly since we stood back and said "pkay you can have it back ... see if you can do better without our governance." Its starting to look like you should have left in charge, what?
I suspect not... the sins of the latter empire were numerous and grievous. (Speaking as one from said former Empire) It is easy to take swings at the Americans for thier current global Hegemony, but any student of history can see the parallels with the preceding British one. And the dominions which have been independant of the Empire the longest seem to be doing the best... (US, Canada, Austrailia, NZ, SA, India... all are doing quite well without the Queen's good graces and guidance.)
The nations in the most dire straights are those that were the last vistages of empire (with the exception of Hong Kong... which was more of a place looking for a flag of convienience than anything else... (I was there before and after the hand over nothing changed but the flag.)
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AlMr:
So you are against "Imperial" not just Imperial measures?
(If you bend down a bit, lofty, you might get a bit more oxygen to help your brain function in an unbiased way)
You have to admit (back on subject) that the metric system is boring...
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Boring like UK decimal coinage is boring. Nothing like 240 pence to the pound to keep things interesting.
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AlMr:
So you are against "Imperial" not just Imperial measures?
(If you bend down a bit, lofty, you might get a bit more oxygen to help your brain function in an unbiased way)
You have to admit (back on subject) that the metric system is boring...
Yes I oppose imperialism as a concept not just a measurement system. Both are farsicly illogical, difficult to compute, and arbitrary in application. ;)
Metric boring? Of course it is, that is what a system of measurement should be, sensible, consistent and predictable.
Even within Imperial units there is disagreement. I'd rather have the 20 oz UK pint than the US 16 oz. The extra four oz I suspect are there because the beer in the commonwealth is much better so people want more of it, where as in the US the beer is something you would want less of. ;)
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I bet the ancestors of gribble and Ictus were railing against the newfangled Arabic numerals when there was nothing wrong with good old traditional Roman numerals
Except that they didn't have a zero (0)! ???
Actually, the metric system is far from perfect; it would be much better if it were base-12 instead of base-10...
@ Akai:
That's just the metric system with different labels!
1/10, 1, 10, 100, 1000 is a metric progression.
1/12, 1, 3, 1762 is a Imperial progression.
1/16, 1, 2000 is another Imperial progression, and
1/32, 1/4, 1, 4 is yet another
- *note* American Fluid Ounces and British Fluid Ounces are NOT the same! 1 US fl.oz. = 1.04 UK fl.oz. 1 US gal = 0.8 UK gal
To be more like Imperial, there would have to be 15 booies to the drambooie and 7 drambooies to the flarg, and 1,286 flargs to the yuhep.
(note that the unit labels rarely have any relationship with each other, and to make it especially fun, have a unit of volume use the same unit label as a unit of weight, and have no units for measuring mass, just weight, so your system is only useful at a certain elevation on a certain planet)
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Base 12 would only be better if our entire numerical system was in base 12.
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which it should be...
12 has more factorals than 10, so you would get repeating decimals far less often.
I can divide a circle into 12 equal parts fairly well freehand, but dividing a circle into 10 equal parts is hard even with a protractor.
I suspect that there was once a base-12 numbering system in some southern European culture, as several languages (Greek, English, French, Spanish) have different words for 11 and 12 (OK, so Spanish has different words for 13&14 also, and French for 15&16), and they are not referred to as tendyone or oneteen
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I know why 12 is preferred by some, but that's not about the metric system, it's about the base of our numerical system. If we counted in base 12, then the metric system would have been in base 12.
The factors business is certainly true for simplfying mental arithmatic. Wouldn't make much difference to scientists, though, because our important numbers are nearly always irrational (or, at least, we have no reason to assume that they are rational).
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I suspect that there was once a base-12 numbering system in some southern European culture, as several languages (Greek, English, French, Spanish) have different words for 11 and 12 (OK, so Spanish has different words for 13&14 also, and French for 15&16), and they are not referred to as tendyone or oneteen
Just for the record, Spanish has different words for 1-15, just before it turns to "10+n" (in terms of word construction).
As for the poll, just the name of the Imperial system makes it look suspect to me. Too much setting-specific, I bet.
Rb
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I forgot - rather than going for a 12-base system, why not use the good old binary system? Hexadecimal numbers anyone?
Defintely, this poll is incomplete and does lead us nowhere... I suggest it's replaced by something like:
"With whom would you prefer to be left alone in a desert island:
A. Gribble.
B. Smug.
C. A copy of RMC VII
D. Kate Beckinsale.
E. Other (please explain)"
Rb
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I'm voting for Kate Beckinsale.
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With whom would you prefer to be left alone in a desert island:
A. Gribble.
B. Smug.
C. A copy of RMC VII
D. Kate Beckinsale.
E. Other (please explain)"
Rb
A conditional A vote if the bannana's are too high up in the tree to reach and I need a short stool to reach them. If the trees are too tall I vote D, and to hell with the Banannas.
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Actually, this poll probably leans heavily towards one direction due to the fairly multinational crowd we have here (which I like, btw). However, the poll would therefore only have so much relivance as the amount of product sold in nations using the metric sytem. If the majority of the ICE products are sold in the US, then it would silly to use Metric. However, if there's a large percentage of foreign (outside the US) sales then we should be nice and let them put metric... um... notes... in the very back of the books... in really small print. Ok, ok, seriously, if that were the case they should list both measurements.
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I bet the ancestors of gribble and Ictus were railing against the newfangled Arabic numerals when there was nothing wrong with good old traditional Roman numerals
Except that they didn't have a zero (0)! ???
Actually, the metric system is far from perfect; it would be much better if it were base-12 instead of base-10...
@ Akai:
That's just the metric system with different labels!
I'm well aware of that. :P The point is that some people don't like the metric system because it sounds too bland, too "scientific", so my suggested remedy to that particular objection is to give names to the units that have a bit more character to them.
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Actually, this poll probably leans heavily towards one direction due to the fairly multinational crowd we have here (which I like, btw). However, the poll would therefore only have so much relivance as the amount of product sold in nations using the metric sytem. If the majority of the ICE products are sold in the US, then it would silly to use Metric. However, if there's a large percentage of foreign (outside the US) sales then we should be nice and let them put metric... um... notes... in the very back of the books... in really small print. Ok, ok, seriously, if that were the case they should list both measurements.
No no no. No double measurements. I prefer to learn imperial rather than to deal with the strange conversions I pointed out some pages ago in this thread.
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I prefer to learn imperial rather than to deal with the strange conversions I pointed out some pages ago in this thread.
I thought that the other guys were just explaining that it is almost impossible to learn imperial.
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I thought that the other guys were just explaining that it is almost impossible to learn imperial.
;D
I guess it's better than dealing with 96cm3/lvl spells. Ideally, I would prefer Akai's solution but I understand that a product mostly sold in the US has to be adapted to the market. Are ICE's products mostly sold in the US by the way (counting PDFs)?
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In some sense, the UK and US cutomers are actually in a better situation with metric than the rest of the world are with Imperial, given that we learn both (as we have to, because the metric system is much more prevalent and is also key to any sort of career in science, etc) wheras people who grow up in countries where measurements are all in metric have no reason to learn an antiquated and dying measurement system like Imperial.
I think that measuring temperatures in Fahrenheit will be the last thing to go, in the US (although, strangely, it has already gone in the UK), unless concerns about road safety keep mph as the measurement of speed (rather than dual measurements in kmph and mph).
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US auto manufacturers responded to the call for metric by producing speedometers with both mph and kph. Strangely, this does not seem to have helped switch things over, it merely gives us a useless gague on our cars. If, however, they had switched the SPEED LIMIT signs AND the speedometers, then you look at your gague, and if it's reading higher than the sign, keep an eye out for the mobile revenue generation officers (police).
How about look at it this way: I have, say, 5 main cultures in my world (for example). I want each one to have its unique system of measurement, just to hack off my players. So, I have to make up the systems, and create conversion charts so that I at least know what I'm talking about. I'd much rather use SI as the basis for those conversions than Imperial.
I'm actually getting annoyed at hearing that Imperial units give a flavor to the system. If this is so, then the flavor is pralines and lark's vomit. The Imperial system is lame, and needs to go bye-bye, and is in the process of doing so. If flavor is a desire, then Akai's system would work great for one of the cultures, but you know what? Not all cultures across the world are going to use the same system!
The best website I've found for systems of measurement is University Exeter,
http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/dictunit.htm
For some good flavor, try this site and use old foreign measurement systems:
http://www.convert-me.com/en/
Japanese: ri / kairi / cho / jyo / ken / shyaku / sun / mon
Chinese Imperial: li / yin / zhang / bu / chi / cun / fen / vli (small) / hao / si / hu
Old Russian : mile / verst / mezhevaya verst / kosaya sazhen / sazhen / makhovaya / azhen / arshin / ell * / foot / line / inch / vershok / pyad
Ancient Roman : millarium / akt / decimpeda / pace / cubit / ped (foot) legal / ped ordinary / ounce (inch) / digit
Americans probably use a greater variety of units of measurement than anyone else in the world. Caught in a slow-moving transition from customary to metric units, we employ a fascinating and sometimes frustrating mixture of units in talking about the same things. We measure the length of a race in meters, but the length of the long jump event in feet and inches. We speak of an engine's power in horsepower and its displacement in liters. In the same dispatch, we describe a hurricane's wind speed in knots and its central pressure in millibars.
Furthermore, our English customary units do not form a consistent system. Reflecting their diverse roots in Celtic, Roman, Saxon, and Norse cultures, they are often confusing and contradictory. There are two systems for land measurement (one based on the yard and the other on the rod) and a third system for distances at sea. There are two systems (avoirdupois and troy) for small weights and two more (based on the long and short tons) for large weights. Americans use two systems for volumes (one for dry commodities and one for liquids) and the British use a third (British Imperial Measure).
Meanwhile, only a few Americans know that the legal definitions of the English customary units are actually based on metric units. The U. S. and British governments have agreed that a yard equals exactly 0.9144 meter and an avoirdupois pound equals exactly 0.453 592 37 kilograms. In this way, all the units of measurement Americans use every day are based on the standards of the metric system. Since 1875, in fact, the United States has subscribed to the International System of Weights and Measures, the official version of the metric system.
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Ireland just changed the way it did things (last year) ... but up until then ... SPEED was measured in Miles per hour (speed limits/laws/etc all used mph) but DISTANCE was measured in Kilometers !!!
Last January, we officially switched to using km/h for speed ... and this was heralded by a huge publicity campaign. All the speed limits had to be adjusted ... 30 MPH easily switched to 50 km/h ... but some of the others were more problematic ...
Similarly, by law - volume must be measured in litres ... but people still measure fuel consumption in miles/gallon
Anything being sold in the shops must use Metric meaures (but may offer imperial measures on the same sign) - any shop only offering imperial measures will be brought to court. Since this is an EU-wide law ... the same laws apply in the UK. Doesn't stop carpets/tiles/other DIY stuff being sold "by the square yard" ... and having a figure like ?9.99 per square yard (and then some wierd-ass cost per square meter).
Of course, there's a classic quote in one of the evening papers from 1974 when Ireland dumped the old fashoned lsd and switched to the old (100 pennies to the pound) Irish decimal pounds.
"Why didn't they wait for all the old people to die before getting rid of the traditional money?"
No comment :)
Cormac
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There's still a few people about (young and old) that need to know the temparatures in old money. Not that it really matters in the uk because if you base your clothing choices on the weather forcast you will certainly be caught out.
Measurement systems do not need to be consistent to non-scientists and non-geeks (I think I said this before). For example: I only need to know, "do I need a coat". Being told that the temperature will be 15 degrees celcius and the windspeed is 10 km/h doesn't help. However, if I ask my mother the answer will always be "yes" regardless of the situation.
The capricious nature of imperial measure gives the user (in RL and RPG) the necessary leeway to manouvre answers to suit themselves. For example if you declare that you want to shoot a monster half a mile away with your water bolt the GM isn't really in a position to argue if your range is 2,500 feet. If I say that is a quarter of a mile and the monster is splatted no-one (except the aformentioned deviants) will gainsay me.
Imperial Measure is the way forward: for colour ( ;) ) and for fudging ( ::) )
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... from 1974 when Ireland dumped the old fashoned lsd and switched to the old (100 pennies to the pound) Irish decimal pounds.
Ireland got rid of that after the UK did, then. I guess that it's not a bad idea to watch someone else do it and aim to avoid the same problems they encounter (price inflation hit the UK pretty hard, with a new penny being 2.4 old pennies and prices didn't change to suit).
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OK...I'll ask again...
WHAT DO ICE WANT????
come on Tim, what do you like, and what do the rest of the team like, as at the end of the day that counts more than any poll.
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I'd guess that ICE would have it in Imperial because everything has been up until now, RM-wise.
However, whatever they want, they might not want to step into the imperial/metric jingoistic deathmatch.
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Ireland just changed the way it did things (last year) ... but up until then ... SPEED was measured in Miles per hour (speed limits/laws/etc all used mph) but DISTANCE was measured in Kilometers !!!
God gosh, that's just silly.
Think of the mathmatic story problems they could have: So, you want to drive to grandma's house from mom's house and it's 50 kilometers you're I'm driving 40 miles per hour... how long will it take to get there?
That's just wrong.
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Think of the mathmatic story problems they could have: So, you want to drive to grandma's house from mom's house and it's 50 kilometers you're I'm driving 40 miles per hour... how long will it take to get there?
And more importantly - how many kilometers per gallon do you get so you know how many liters of gas to buy at the station before the trip?
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more like meters to the liter now :)
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You must drive a BIG car. . . .
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Think of the mathmatic story problems they could have: So, you want to drive to grandma's house from mom's house and it's 50 kilometers you're I'm driving 40 miles per hour... how long will it take to get there?
That's just wrong.
right out of the head, a bit less than an hour.... somewhere around 50 minutes. :Joker2:
as for the consumption, it's not knowing gallons per kilometers to know how many liters to buy at the station,
It's knowing how many gallons per miles to know how many liter to buy.
after it's just plain mathematics.
Gallons/miles = liters/kilometers => (Gallons/miles) * kilometers = liters.
;D
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Here are a few random thoughts:
The real issue here isn't what is "logical" or "easy to use" or even "setting appropriate". The issue is "What are people used to?"
Americans are used to Imperial Standard although commercial realities have made metric use fairly common. Most Europeans are used to metric and therefore prefer it. Personally I have no real problem with most metric conversions since I can do a rough estimate in my head. If I have to I can do the conversion. I STILL have no head for Celsius, sorry but I HAVE to do the conversion and that one is a pain in the arse.
I know that some US states tried pushing the metric/standard highway signs. This was met with public outcry and the states quickly dropped the issue. I believe the real original motivator was the automotive industry since they don't have any great love of stocking Imperial Standard gauges for the US and metric for almost everyone else.
How many conversions from larger units to smaller units do most a gamers have to do anyway? Let's face it the real benefit of metric is that it's logical. Yet in most games I am almost never converting from miles to yards to feet to inches. This issue always comes back to, "What are people ued to?".
My prediction: Anything that ICE produces will be in Imperial Standard since that is what they have been using, they are based in the US and the US is (I would think) their target market.
BTW - Repackaging metric with different unit names is still metric, the new names are merely color. Developing a "new" system for a game is just bringing back the problem that people are not used to the system. The problem is familiarity and preference.
I DID vote Imperial Standard (not that these polls matter in the slightest) but I really don't care that much. I have used metric and if I have to do calculations it is common for me to convert to metric and convert back to standard when I am finished. I love the ease of metric but I LIVE with Imperial Standard thus I tend to prefer the measurement I can easily visualize.
Here's one of my favorite questions since most Americans have no clue as to the answer:
What is the Imperial Standard measurement for mass?
The slug
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ImpStd measurement for mass is kilograms ;)
I can help you with visualizing Celcuis scale:
-20? = dangerously cold. (-10F)
-10? = really cold. (10F)
00? = freezing. (30F)
10? = cold. (50F)
20? = comfy. (70F)
30? = hot. (90F)
40? = really hot. (110F)
50? = dangerously hot. (130F)
quick and dirty:
?C x2 +30 =?F
?F -30 /2 =?C
that's not exact, but it's close.
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I've never understood Farenheit as a scale.
Celcius (Centigrade) ...
0 = Freezing point of Water
100 = Boiling point of Water
Farenheit
0 = "Coldest recorded temperature somewhere in Norway at a specified time"
100 = Supposedly - "Human Body Temperature" ... actually - since Dr. Farenheit had a raised temperature that day (he had the flue) ... Body temperature ends up being roughly 98.5
Which makes more sense ?
On a rough approximation - Sorloc's conversion will get you to within a fraction of a degree either way ... so for our purposes there's absolutely nothing wrong with it ...
Cormac
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Of course - to clarify ... the Celcius temperatures are assumed to be at standard atsmosphere and elevation (sea-level)
Cormac
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How many conversions from larger units to smaller units do most a gamers have to do anyway? Let's face it the real benefit of metric is that it's logical. Yet in most games I am almost never converting from miles to yards to feet to inches..
That is a very backward approach. That people try to stay clear of doing conversions is most probably becuase they currently must do it in imperial. Switch to metric and the people that are used to that system can do conversions and the imperial people can continue use the values as is without ever using them for calculations.
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The fahrenheit scale is approximately 0 = freezing point of 'seawater' and 100 = 'blood'*, isn't it?
*Not exact, but I think that was the original idea.
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quick and dirty:
?C x2 +30 =?F
?F -30 /2 =?C
that's not exact, but it's close.
F = 1.8*C + 32
C= (F-32)/1.8
need to be similyfied? ???
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Can't wait for the logic of Kelvin to set in, so the weather report is always in the high 200 to low 400 range. . . .Starting at absolute zero, our methane breathing evil alien overlords prefer it to this celcius business, which they consider a modern version of water worship.
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In physics we always used metric. Then again it was mainly for very large or very small things. I still have no idea how much a Newton really is - short of that it isn't very much. Of course dyne/ergs make even less sense. I still mentally have to mentally approximate metric to standard, except for km/h which mean nothing to me.
Silly question - why does pop come in 2L, 1L then 20oz containers? Or more importantly, how many L are in a pint (16.09 oz) of Guiness?
The only real conversions we have ever done is figuring out how many mph 500'/round converts into (FYI - I was in zephyr hound form with a spell cast that meant I expended walking eshaustion as running).
Fahrenheit was a biologist so 0 & 100 degrees refer to certain cells ability to function (I forget the specifics) while Celcius thought water a better medium to use.
(smug very nearly wise...)
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The point wasn't that I AVOID conversions but that I rarely find the need to make them. For me the conversions are easy: 12 inches to the foot, three fot to the yard, blah, blah, blah. I don't find that I need to make conversions so I don't feel the NEED for the logic of metric in my game.
As far as the Farenheit to Celsius conversion, I know the formula but it isn't one that I can crunch in my head immediately. That and I don't use it all of the time so I would have to look it up. Personally I like LordMiller's point, Kelvin is really the best standard. Not likely the one which is most likely to catch on but still is the best standard.
The basic point is that this is all about PREFERENCE. People are not logical and the reason why metric has been slow to catch on here in the States is that people want to use what they are used to as opposed to switching to the more "logical" (sorry, the fact that a liter is not a square meter is a little strange to me. I understand why, it just doesn't fit the "logic" of the entire system) metric system.
Everyone can sit here and argue all they want but I doubt that it will make any difference. As Tim has pointed out, ICE didn't post the poll. Personally I think that we dinosaurs here in the US should have switched to metric a long time ago, but I don't want to deal with it. I am USED to Imperial Standard and don't feel the need to change. US companies have mostly converted in the interests of dealing with the rest of the world.
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US companies have mostly converted in the interests of dealing with the rest of the world.
And so will ICE one day, I think.
Rb
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Can't wait for the logic of Kelvin to set in, so the weather report is always in the high 400 to low 500 range. . . .Starting at absolute zero, our methane breathing evil alien overlords prefer it to this celcius business, which they consider a modern version of water worship.
Hum, I thought the Kelvin scale was something around K = C + 273. That would give us the measure of a bright, warm, sunny day around 300 kelvins. Not bad, I can get used to that.
Rb
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Most of the US companies who have gone metric deal with mechanical products. These are mainly large items which will eventually require repair. People in other countries will not purchase Imperial Standard tools so they have had to convert to metric fasteners. This puts Americans in the situation where many of us own two sets of tools, metric and IS.
My favorite situation was the early change-over in the early 80's. I had a car which required IS tools for the engine but metric tools for the chasis.
As far as US gaming companies converting to metric; I don't see it happening any time soon. American buyers are the main target for most US gaming companies and they will not be at all happy about a switch to metric. I know people who complain about sci-fi games which are metric. I have to believe that the majority of ICE sales are in the US. If this is the case then there is NO real advantage for ICE to switch to metric.
This is not an argument for IS, just being realistic. Most of the posters on this subject appear to be Europeans. I can understand your arguments in favor of metric. The problem is that I'm not sure if you can understand the argument against it. Americans are loath to switch to metric because they are used to IS. The US government tried to push a conversion to metric and it didn't work. Americans prefer to stay with the system they know and some see a switch as "un-American". Strange I know, but this is the situation.
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As I said before, the US already uses a mix of metric and Imperial units. In the end, I guess that it'll all be metric or dual-valued (even selling food products abroad, there's savings to uniformity of packaging). Everything going dual-valued is probably the way to get people used to it and then make the change to metric slow.
As for rpgs, I guess that where the market is will be the deciding factor. I guess that the US is the majority of the market, although any games company that can change that could do really well (given that there are more non-Americans than there are Americans).
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As for rpgs, I guess that where the market is will be the deciding factor. I guess that the US is the majority of the market, although any games company that can change that could do really well (given that there are more non-Americans than there are Americans).
Unless you translate more than measurements I suspect it will be hard to penetrate the international markets. Amazingly it is relatively easy to find WHFRP in a plethora of languages. The english speaking world is dominated by the Americans... the numbers game just doesn't work in our favour.
Rough estimates...
300 million Americans (have to conciously resist the natural tendancy of Canadians to refer to them as Yanks or 'the States' ;) )
30+ milion Canadains
20+ million Antipodeans
70+ million between the UK and Ireland
As far as the english market goes the americans have the numbers. The other english speakers (South Africans, other members of the comonwealth, and others) are not easy markets for a little game company to appeal to.
Unless you were releasing a spanish version, or perhaps a french or german version... In which case metric would make overwhelming sense.
A spanish version could do well, the market is big enough, and there are many good and affordable translators to draw from in the USA. Not to mention it has dommestic applicability.
A french version in metric would be nice... but probably not too likely.
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A spanish version could do well, the market is big enough, and there are many good and affordable translators to draw from in the USA. Not to mention it has dommestic applicability.
A french version in metric would be nice... but probably not too likely.
Though, I find funny that in this forum, where people do speak English and no other European language, metric is still the favourite. Don't underestimate the value of English as lingua franca. As for translations, I agree they're the best possible option, especially considering I do translations for a living. Unfortunately, a translation from someone in the US would sound strange to someone in Spain (or Argentina, for that matter). It's a fragmented market in terms of dialects, although we all agree in the use of metric system ;)
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As for rpgs, I guess that where the market is will be the deciding factor. I guess that the US is the majority of the market, although any games company that can change that could do really well (given that there are more non-Americans than there are Americans).
Unless you translate more than measurements I suspect it will be hard to penetrate the international markets. Amazingly it is relatively easy to find WHFRP in a plethora of languages. The english speaking world is dominated by the Americans... the numbers game just doesn't work in our favour.
Rough estimates...
300 million Americans (have to conciously resist the natural tendancy of Canadians to refer to them as Yanks or 'the States' ;) )
30+ milion Canadains
20+ million Antipodeans
70+ million between the UK and Ireland
As far as the english market goes the americans have the numbers. The other english speakers (South Africans, other members of the comonwealth, and others) are not easy markets for a little game company to appeal to.
Unless you were releasing a spanish version, or perhaps a french or german version... In which case metric would make overwhelming sense.
A spanish version could do well, the market is big enough, and there are many good and affordable translators to draw from in the USA. Not to mention it has dommestic applicability.
A french version in metric would be nice... but probably not too likely.
A surprising number of young people in Europe speak good english. Not just Scandinavia and the Netherlands (who often speak English better than the the typical english person) but I was pretty surprised by how many people spoke good English when I was in Slovakia and Austria and, I gather, the situation is pretty similar in Germany. Increasing international proficiency in the English language, particularly amongst the young, should be increasing the opportunities for rpg firms (although, clearly, this is against a backdrop of falling interest in ttrpgs in general).
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OK, so should we now move to a discussion of what language to use?
I vote for Japanese, as it is an advanced language, with technical (math, science, engineering, high-tech) capability, and still fairly simple to learn, as opposed to English, which, as it does recreate itself on a continuing basis by absorbing elements of any culture it comes into contact with, is complicated to the point of insensibility, even to most native speakers.
;)
I take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you,
On hiccough, thorough, laugh and through?
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird,
And dead: it's said like bed, not bead -
For goodness sake don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt).
A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother,
And here is not a match for there
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's dose and rose and lose -
Just look them up - and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward,
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart -
Come, come, I've hardly made a start!
A dreadful language? Man alive!
I'd mastered it when I was five!
When the English tongue we speak.
Why is break not rhymed with freak?
Will you tell me why it's true
We say sew but likewise few?
And the maker of the verse,
Cannot rhyme his horse with worse?
Beard is not the same as heard
Cord is different from word.
Cow is cow but low is low
Shoe is never rhymed with foe.
Think of hose, dose,and lose
And think of goose and yet with choose
Think of comb, tomb and bomb,
Doll and roll or home and some.
Since pay is rhymed with say
Why not paid with said I pray?
Think of blood, food and good.
Mould is not pronounced like could.
Wherefore done, but gone and lone -
Is there any reason known?
To sum up all, it seems to me
Sound and letters don't agree.
This was written by Lord Cromer, 1902
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OK, so should we now move to a discussion of what language to use?
I vote for Japanese, as it is an advanced language, with technical (math, science, engineering, high-tech) capability, and still fairly simple to learn, as opposed to English, which, as it does recreate itself on a continuing basis by absorbing elements of any culture it comes into contact with, is complicated to the point of insensibility, even to most native speakers.
Spoken Japonese is quite easy... not much in the way of complex grammer, the sylabic system makes sense after you've delt with it for a short while. When I worked in Japan I found it quite easy to function, basic manners, restraunt speak etc... HOWEVER the written language is a mess. 4 separate writing systems used on a single page, I remember the names of some of them... Hirigana, Katkana, Romaji... Can't remember the other one.
If you don't want to have a Quebec premier upset remember to release the French version at the same time as the english one. (last time MS did that then premier Lucien Buchard stormed up and down... to no avial :P) Oh yah and it should be in Quebec City french not Algerian, Outaouais, Dominican, or Parisian. :)
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I'd think Esperanto would be the obvious choice.
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lol
I'd think Esperanto would be the obvious choice.
Does ANYONE seriously use Esperanto ?
in my experience, English is rapidly becoming the "Lingua Franca" of business and (especially) technology ...
Cormac
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in my experience, English is rapidly becoming the "Lingua Franca" of business and (especially) technology ...
Is that like saying Jerusalem is the Mecca of Judaism? ;)
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Hiragana (for japanese words), Katakana (for "foreign" word), Romaji (Roman letters) and Kanji (Chinese symbols)
I dont agree on that Japanese is easy to learn. I have been studying for 2 years now and havent really gotten a hand of it yet, but that might be because of a tint of lazyness. Nor does it feel logic to me. It is maybe because I still try to speak as I write.
Another problem with Japanese is that when you learn it, you have to learn up to 3 languages in one, both written and spoken. These depend on who you are talking to, then different rules apply. So japanese, no thank you.
English is prefered where I live, which is Scandinavia. There is actually little interest here in translated books, for two reasons. We are a small population, around 15 million if you count all 4 or 5 languages (The countries in Scandinavia varies depending on who you ask), so tranlating everything wouldnt be a good market. Also we are very comfortable with english as is.
We are somewhat used to the Metric/IS conversion, 3 feet to a yard which is short of 1m, 12 inches to a foot, and 2.54cm to an inch. It is just bothersome, but causes no really problems. Usually we see 10feet as 3meters, so we got it covered pretty much. I did vote for Metric, though I dont really care. Still a sheet for conversion in the back would be a nice gesture
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lol
I'd think Esperanto would be the obvious choice.
Does ANYONE seriously use Esperanto ?
in my experience, English is rapidly becoming the "Lingua Franca" of business and (especially) technology ...
Cormac
In this case I would quote the fmous Borg dito: "Lower your shields, and surrender your ships. Resistance is Futile!"
English is relatively easy to learn.
My country speaks portuguese but I recognize that the majority of Latin America, and some of the US speaks spanish. Probably spanish would be a good idea for second laguage for ICE products.
PS: Laugh point to LordMiller. ;)
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Metric(voted)
Easier to put into Excel sheets. ;)
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Voted Metric. Imperial System is some kind of... folkloric ?
Don't forget that there are player's outside USA ;D
It's for us a real pain to "translate" those units...
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Voted Metric. Imperial System is some kind of... folkloric ?
Don't forget that there are player's outside USA ;D
It's for us a real pain to "translate" those units...
It's a pain for the american's too, the math is the same just in reverse.
But then, I used to be my school's metric tutor(while I was still a student), and I'm all for america switching to metric standards.
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I do not understand the "it is so hard to calculate imperial to metric" or metric to imperial arguement. Perhaps in sci fi were accurate measures are needed, but in a fantsy game, 1 foot is 25cm, and yard/meter are fairly interchangable. For long distances, 1 mile is 1.6km. The math required to translate is simple, and often doesnt even require a calculator.
lynn
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A foot is closer to 30 cm than 25 cm (and, indeed, good job too, or a yard and a meter really wouldn't be even approximately interchangeable).
I do all my science in metric but still measure everyday distances and weights in imperial (that's true of nearly all British people, I would say).
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I do not understand the "it is so hard to calculate imperial to metric" or metric to imperial arguement. lynn
Not hard. Just tiresome. Like others, I think that both of them would be better.
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I do not understand the "it is so hard to calculate imperial to metric" or metric to imperial arguement. [...]
The fact you need to calculate is the problem. I spend two and a half years in the US to get my Ph.D. and I never got a feeling for the Imperial System. At that time I learned to quickly calculate conversions to metric, but it is kind of tiresome.
I have no hope ICE would convert to metric but dual stats would be a nice solution. Perhaps ICE would agree if some of us volunteer to make the conversions and release a metric version of their pdf offerings.
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I voted Metric but better two versions (or dual system).
I have grown up with metric system and the conversions become boring mainly because of the spells that include areas, volumes, velocities,... I guess the same thing would happen to Imperial people.
.... or a " Universal Fantastic ICE system for ICE Worlds" :D
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gosh is this one still going, and are us imperialists loosing....
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In Eden Studio’s WitchCraft, they use the IS, but give a conversion note in the Convention section at the beginning of the book:
“Measurements
This book primarily uses U.S. measurements (feet,
yards, miles, pounds, etc.). Metric system equivalents
appear in parentheses. In the interests of ease of use,
the conversions are rounded relatively arbitrarily. For
example, miles are multiplied by 1.5 to get kilometers
(instead of 1.609), meters are equal to yards (instead
of 1.094 yards), pounds are halved to get kilograms
(instead of multiplied by 0.4536), and so on. If a
Chronicler feels that more precision is necessary, she
should take the U.S. measurements provided and
apply more exact formulas.â€
I feel that it works well.
I also like that they switch gender each chapter:
“Gender
Every roleplaying game struggles with the decision
about third person pronouns and possessives. While
the male reference (he, him, his) is customarily used
for both male and female, there is no question that it
is not entirely inclusive. On the other hand, the “he or
she†structure is clumsy and unattractive. In an effort
to “split the difference,†this book and all books in the
WitchCraft line use male designations for even chapters,
and female designations for odd chapters.â€
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The UK uses an odd mix of Imperial and metric, which works for us.
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The UK uses an odd mix of Imperial and metric, which works for us.
Is that because all you Brits are odd people? :P ;)
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Everything is logarithmic (powers of 10).
That's not what "logarithmic" means.
And the SAE system is useful in some situations, whereas metric is useful in other situation. Neither is good for all.
I prefer to use archaic systems for fantasy, a mix of SAE & metric for modern, and metric only for future (space) games.
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The UK uses an odd mix of Imperial and metric, which works for us.
Is that because all you Brits are odd people? :P ;)
oh, I so want to forward this to my Brit gf. :)
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OK, that's weird. *I* wrote that post, not arakish.
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Problem with conversions is oddity.
Like if ICE were a metric company, "Symbolic Ways" would likely require a stone weighing one Metric Ton, instead of 2000 lbs, or one imperial ton. . .of course, one metric ton is 2,200 pounds. . .
Whatever the standard, you end up creating oddity in the conversion, like "Range of .9 meters per level" or "Affects 900 cubic centameters/level". . .if done for metric, those would be just 1 meter per level and 1000 cubic CM. (In which case the conversion back ends up with odd fractions or percentiles.)
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LM,
See my earlier post. Eden does a good job with the conversions without much hassel.
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Everything is logarithmic (powers of 10).
That's not what "logarithmic" means.
I'm afraid it does...
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Everything is logarithmic (powers of 10).
That's not what "logarithmic" means.
I'm afraid it does...
QFT (at least in some contexts)
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'Logarithmic' doesn't mean powers of ten, because ten is only one of the bases to which logarithms can be taken.
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Decimetric?
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I've seen metric introduced to the UK over my liftime, and have done maths with imperial, and it is much harder to use than metric MUCH.
saying that I like imperial when it comes to miles, feet and inches, stones and pounds and acres. All for larger items, but when measuring layouts it is much much easier to use millimeters than fractions of an inch, no slide rules required shall we say.
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actually having said all that, these are generally fantasy and thus old fashioned worlds, so imperial fits better, though spacemaster perhaps should be more progressive.
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Everything is logarithmic (powers of 10).
That's not what "logarithmic" means.
I'm afraid it does...
A base-10 logarithmic scale (such as the Richter scale for measuring earthquakes) has a ten-fold increase for each unit of the scale. In other words going from 1 to 2 is ten times as much as going from 0 to 1. And going from 2 to 3 is 10 times as much as going from 1 to 2.
So, unless in the the metric system the distance from 1 meter to 2 meters is 10 times the distance from 0 to 1 meter, it's not logarithmic. Last time I checked the length from 1 to 2 meters was identical to the length from 0 to 1 meters.
Plotted on a graph, logarithmic measurements are always curves. Measurements in the metric system are always straight lines.
Other common logarithmic scales include the decibel scale, photographic "f-stops", octaves in music, pH, stellar magnitudes, etc.
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I've seen metric introduced to the UK over my liftime, and have done maths with imperial, and it is much harder to use than metric MUCH.
Unless you're in construction, or one of several related fields. Dividing by 2, 3 or 4 is common in those fields, and difficult in metric (hence the 12 basis of a number of measurements). Dividing a meter into thirds yields a number with a repeating decimal... Also, the multiples of 8 and 16 come from coins, which are relatively easy to divide into 8 or 16 (change used to be given by literally cutting up the coin and giving back pieces of it, ie, "pieces of eight").
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Everything is logarithmic (powers of 10).
That's not what "logarithmic" means.
I'm afraid it does...
A base-10 logarithmic scale (such as the Richter scale for measuring earthquakes) has a ten-fold increase for each unit of the scale. In other words going from 1 to 2 is ten times as much as going from 0 to 1. And going from 2 to 3 is 10 times as much as going from 1 to 2.
So, unless in the the metric system the distance from 1 meter to 2 meters is 10 times the distance from 0 to 1 meter, it's not logarithmic. Last time I checked the length from 1 to 2 meters was identical to the length from 0 to 1 meters.
Plotted on a graph, logarithmic measurements are always curves. Measurements in the metric system are always straight lines.
Other common logarithmic scales include the decibel scale, photographic "f-stops", octaves in music, pH, stellar magnitudes, etc.
Ok, thanks for lesson ;D
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A 'logarithmic scale' often also refers to a graphing scale, which will allow for a large range to be expressed on the axis and also makes exponential relationships follow a straight line.
The reason that metric is often said to be 'logarithmic' is that there are new named units every power of thousand.
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A 'logarithmic scale' often also refers to a graphing scale, which will allow for a large range to be expressed on the axis and also makes exponential relationships follow a straight line.
The reason that metric is often said to be 'logarithmic' is that there are new named units every power of thousand.
Damned, I must have made a mistake. Must be a mathematics teachers' forum :help:
;D
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Damned, I must have made a mistake. Must be a mathematics teachers' forum :help:
"Rolemaster - a favorite among math professionals everywhere..."
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Mysteriously, I have been a mathematics teacher (although moreso a physics teacher).
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Mysteriously, I have been a mathematics teacher (although moreso a physics teacher).
Argh, seems to be the end of a Scooby gang's adventure, when they remove the monster's mask.
"This GM is actually a... mathematics teacher..."Â :o
:laugh1:
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That was delightfully entertaining. Laugh points around.
lynn