Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Spacemaster => Topic started by: snrdg051306 on March 05, 2011, 11:42:48 AM
-
Hello all,
I'm slowly working my way through the design example and think that there appears to be some new errata. I'd like to verify my findings before contacting the person in control of the errata topic.
Per the Example on p. 110 Gary adds a single payload pallet to the TMAC being designed. The calculations are correct, at least I can get my to agree, for the pallet and torpedo. Referring back to p. 98 Select Hard and Strong Points (4)
Hard points are necessary to mount a missile launcher, auto/projectile cannon, or payload pallet.
If I understand Select Hard and Strong Points (4) a hard point is required to mount payload pallet which requires 2 tons of mass, 2 cubic liters of volume, and costs 80 credits.
This means that the numbers listed in the example text on p. 111, actually from the calculations in the example after Hits on p. 100, are off by 2 in mass and volume. Cost is off by 80 credits.
Did I catch some new errata or am I out to lunch?
-
I agree with you. I got the impression that "Gary" may have forgotten the hardpoint requirement (I know I did originally).
I think we need more work-throughs for the craft in SM:V I tried this with the Courier Shuttle on page 27 but have not got anywhere near. The summary sheets hide a lot of the design decisions.
If anyone has an item by item sequence for these vessels I would be interested in seeing it.
-
Hey Skaran
I thought I corrected the cost from 80 to 800 credits, my fingers sometimes don't tap the keys hard enough.
Actually, I think that "Gary" used the second free strong point, which is led me to posting SM: Privateers VM Construction & Design: Hard and Strong Points & Armor Belt.
I've found that, with few exceptions, I'm not able to duplicate published designs using the design system. I come close but something is just slightly off. Part of the issue is that many designs got created using draft rule set and the designs weren't updated. Another is that the designer tweaked the design to fit everything and had to cut the notes on what was done. The designer intended to add the notes, but just got distracted with something else.
I've gotten to the power source step and have confirmed that mass, volume, and cost are off by the TL 25 hard point requirements of mass = 2, volume = 2, and cost = 800. Should I submit this to the errata moderator?
-
IMO you should submit it to the errata moderator.
I would also submit the note that you cannot come close to the original designs do to them being build using a draft set of rules.
I would also add that if you could get the notes and have them put into the errata that would help a lot also.
MDC
-
So far the only SM: P vehicle I've tried to recreate is the example of Gary's TMAC. I fairly sure I was able to match the example in SM2, but I don't think I matched Jym-Bob's example in SM1. After I've got a handle of entire SM: P Construction sequence, and I remember of course, I'll check to see what I have.
Thanks for the reply and help MarkC.
-
I also think that the example uses the rules from the easy system and not the complete system. That can also result in some errors. But I do not know for sure.
MDC
-
The quick and dirty method pp. 80 to 85, at least in my physical copy of VM, doesn't appear to have an example showing the how to use the system.
However, Select Hard & Strong Points (4) p. 81 and Select Payload Pallets (9) p. 84 both state that a payload pallet requires a hard point.
I'm trying to decide at which Step (4) p. 98 or Step (10) p. 110 of the Complete Vehicle Construction Rules pp. 96 - 123 to add the hard point. Actually, if you added extra strong points and/or hard points at Step (4) you don't have to worry about the them with the weapons, including the torpedo tube/launcher errata, and payload pallet sections. This means that if you add them after Step (4) then the extra strong points and all hard points need to be included with the weapons and/or payload pallets.
The spreadsheet I'm working I can either add the strong points and hard points in Step (4) or with the weapon or payload pallet being added. One of the comments made by most of the people I've shared my game aid drafts is that I over engineer them like what I've described above.
Oops, I forgot to mention I've sent the payload issue to the errata moderator.
-
IMHO I would have the option in both places. That way if you need to add extra points in the weapon phase of the program you can do so. You can also have it generate an error saying you need such and such as X weapon system requires it, then it asks if you want to add it in.
MDC
-
Man, I'm having a problem being clear as well as not being able to type or put together sentences.
I'm doing what you described in the spreadsheet, I just got a response from MarkR.
-
I do not remember how I did it in the sheet I sent you but my sheet was very basic and intended to be a calculator and to be used with the book in hand.
MDC
-
I'll check the spreadsheet and see how you handled the stuff. Thanks for the reminder.
-
I'll check the spreadsheet and see how you handled the stuff. Thanks for the reminder.
Also do not give that spreed sheet to anyone with out asking me first.
Thanks
MDC
-
I hadn't thought about sharing the spreadsheet any further without permission. I'd probably have the person contact you directly, so no problem on that score.
Again thanks for sharing.
-
So, errata or not?
-
MarcR suggested that the community and Defendi needs a chance review and to make comments, before confirming or denying my finding as errata.
-
Yes I guess Defendi would be the best if he remembers but from my look at the material it does look like errata needs to be issued.
MDC
-
Hopefully, Defendi checks out the topic, weighs in on my behalf, and MarcR shuttles the work into the errata section.
-
Recap of Possible Errata submission with recommendations that, I hope, makes more sense over my original comment;-):
There seems be an disconnect between the Select Hard & Strong Points (4) and Select Payload Pallet (10) vehicle construction rules.
Select Hard & Strong Points (4) states that:
1 - Hard points are necessary to mount a missile launcher, auto/projectile cannon, or payload pallet.
2. All vehicles have a minimum number of valid strong points, just as a side effect of solid construction. This number is equal to the mass of the vehicle (in metric tons) divided by 100. All vehicles have at least 2 strong points.
3. Example 1: Gary is satisfied with the two free strong points. He doesn't buy any others.
In the example on p. 109 after Determine Targeting Bonus (9) Gary appears to mount both Blaster Cannons on one of the two inherent strong points.
From the example associated with Select Payload Pallet (10) p. 110
Example: Gary’s TMAC will not be used for delivering payloads, nevertheless, it should have something. Gary selects a single compact torpedo, which at his tech level is Mark 10. The pallet masses 1 metric ton and has 1 kiloliter of volume. The torpedo weighs a mere .25 metric tons. It takes 1 power to target and fire, and ¢26,000 (¢1,000 for the pallet, ¢25,000 for the torpedo).
From the example on the payload pallet Gary appears to have incorrectly mounted the compact torpedo/payload pallet on a strong point per
Hard points are necessary to mount a missile launcher, auto/projectile cannon, or payload pallet.
Adding a hard point at either Select Hard & Strong Points (4) or Select Payload Pallet (10) is required. This adds 2 tons, 2 kiloliters, and a cost of ¢800 to the design as part of the new construction.
If the payload pallet is a modification after the hull frame has been completed the cost is going to be, I think, ¢6,800 (CAT Cost Mult for XVI x Hard Point XVI Cost), per
Adding after the fact requires more work, and the cost is multiplied by the cost multiplier of the material (the base, not the total).
Recommendation 1:
Insert text to the Payload Pallet example concerning the need to add a hard point.
Example: To accommodate the payload pallet Gary must add a hard point to the TMAC. Referring to the Strong and Hard Points chart on page 98 installing a hard point to a CAT XVI hull frame requires 2 tons, 2 kiloliters, and a cost of ¢800.
Recommendation 2:
Insert text to the Hard & Strong point example to include the possibility of carrying non-energy weapons.
Example: Gary wants a little more flexibility in the TMAC's weapons mix and buys a hard point. Referring to the Strong and Hard Points chart below he installs a hard point to the CAT XVI hull frame which requires 2 tons of mass, 2 kiloliters of volume, and a cost of ¢800.
By adding the hard point the intermediate and final calculations will be adjusted by the appropriate amounts.
-
Much better explanation of what is going on in the book and why it needs errata.
MDC
-
Thanks for the comment MarkC, of course the recap is the third rewrite of the issue.
-
IMHO it does not matter how many times you do it is the last one that counts.
MDC
-
Yep, the one that is the clearest is the one that counts.
I've also taken the time to begin reviewing the vehocle construction spreadsheets I created for the two earlier versions of SM.
SM1 Tech Law 2nd U.S. ed, 1986 has Jym-bob designing a 1,000 ton spacecraft. The write-up on Tech Law p. 23 shows two turrets each housing a single Mk. 10 laser cannon on the ship view. The deckplan on p. 35 has a space marked Gun Turret and on either side something that might be an access ladder or maybe gunnery controls. There are two designated fire control stations, which I'm guessing are for the M/A torpedo launcher.
If the two symbols are gunnery couches then the example missed the need for a HUD for each turret.
Other than that everything seems okay.
-
I cannot seem to find my SM2 starstrike spreed sheet but I think I downloaded it from the Vault anyways. Maybe it is the one you created, I do not remember who created it.
MDC
-
I wish I could take the credit for the SM2 VehManWorksheet created by Maurice that I got from somewhere on ICE's pages. If you need another copy and can't locate the file, I can send you a copy. I'm a pack rat with game aids and material like that.;-)
-
can we confirm or deny this one as errata yet?
-
IMHO the answer is yea that there is an error and the correction is needed in the errata thread. The example did miss the need for an hard point.
Is that enough?
MDC
-
added to the errata.
-
Thanks for the update on the status.